Melissa Harris-Perry on the End of Her MSNBC Show: ‘We Were Simply Disappeared’

AMY GOODMAN It is ░░░░░░░░ to have you So ░░░░░░░░ is Luis Guti rrez ░░░░░░░░ Harris Perry That was ░░░░░░░░ AMY GOODMAN the congressman ░░░░░░░░ that hashtag NBCSoWhite Why ░░░░░░░░ you leave MSNBC MELISSA ░░░░░░░░ Perry I didn t ░░░░░░░░ to leave I certainly ░░░░░░░░ to stay I refused ░░░░░░░░ go back on air ░░░░░░░░ simply because what had ░░░░░░░░ was the show was ░░░░░░░░ and I felt that ░░░░░░░░ were asking me to ░░░░░░░░ back to anchor my ░░░░░░░░ but not to actually ░░░░░░░░ my show AMY GOODMAN ░░░░░░░░ do you mean MELISSA ░░░░░░░░ Perry So the show ░░░░░░░░ a certain kind of ░░░░░░░░ We did certain kinds ░░░░░░░░ work We brought particular ░░░░░░░░ We had a perspective ░░░░░░░░ a point of view ░░░░░░░░ we had a lot ░░░░░░░░ editorial control That had ░░░░░░░░ true for four years ░░░░░░░░ over the course of ░░░░░░░░ the months that began ░░░░░░░░ 2016 we had moved ░░░░░░░░ kind of and I ░░░░░░░░ to be clear I ░░░░░░░░ the word politics is ░░░░░░░░ wrong word It was ░░░░░░░░ race election coverage Right ░░░░░░░░ is not the same ░░░░░░░░ from my perspective as ░░░░░░░░ I wasn t prepared ░░░░░░░░ simply do horse race ░░░░░░░░ coverage And so I ░░░░░░░░ not been invited to ░░░░░░░░ my show nor to ░░░░░░░░ anchor during my hours ░░░░░░░░ weeks After some other ░░░░░░░░ outlets asked questions about ░░░░░░░░ I was then invited ░░░░░░░░ not again to host ░░░░░░░░ show but to anchor ░░░░░░░░ 00 A M to ░░░░░░░░ Saturday and Sunday I ░░░░░░░░ that doing so would ░░░░░░░░ been to signal to ░░░░░░░░ audience that everything was ░░░░░░░░ And everything was not ░░░░░░░░ Therefore it was important ░░░░░░░░ actually not be there ░░░░░░░░ that it would be ░░░░░░░░ clear and visible signal ░░░░░░░░ everything was not fine ░░░░░░░░ GOODMAN You mean your ░░░░░░░░ at that time was ░░░░░░░░ called Place for Politics ░░░░░░░░ the rest of MSNBC ░░░░░░░░ branded It wasn t ░░░░░░░░ or MHP anymore MELISSA ░░░░░░░░ Perry That s correct ░░░░░░░░ SHAIKH So who were ░░░░░░░░ just give us a ░░░░░░░░ of the kinds of ░░░░░░░░ that you had on ░░░░░░░░ program MELISSA Harris Perry ░░░░░░░░ mean you know for ░░░░░░░░ we were we were ░░░░░░░░ roundtable basically of at ░░░░░░░░ moment sometimes it might ░░░░░░░░ a one on one ░░░░░░░░ it was often three ░░░░░░░░ four people at the ░░░░░░░░ We worked really hard ░░░░░░░░ make sure that we ░░░░░░░░ diverse voices so that ░░░░░░░░ meant racially diverse it ░░░░░░░░ meant diverse in perspective ░░░░░░░░ also meant diverse across ░░░░░░░░ it also meant diverse ░░░░░░░░ perspectives And you know ░░░░░░░░ for us that meant ░░░░░░░░ any given moment you ░░░░░░░░ have you know a ░░░░░░░░ heterosexual white man like ░░░░░░░░ Zirin who nonetheless is ░░░░░░░░ of our favorite black ░░░░░░░░ but is a cis ░░░░░░░░ white man doing kind ░░░░░░░░ performing a black feminist ░░░░░░░░ of sports at the ░░░░░░░░ time we might have ░░░░░░░░ know Kenji Yoshino who ░░░░░░░░ a queer Asian constitutional ░░░░░░░░ who would be there ░░░░░░░░ talk to us about ░░░░░░░░ Supreme Court So he ░░░░░░░░ doing kind of very ░░░░░░░░ straightforward straight ahead analysis ░░░░░░░░ the Supreme Court but ░░░░░░░░ doing it in a ░░░░░░░░ that might be unusual ░░░░░░░░ GOODMAN Well you brought ░░░░░░░░ sports so tell us ░░░░░░░░ happened Super Bowl time ░░░░░░░░ that sports were your ░░░░░░░░ thing but this Super ░░░░░░░░ 50th anniversary was certainly ░░░░░░░░ with what Beyonc did ░░░░░░░░ Harris Perry Yeah Well ░░░░░░░░ Beyonc dropped Formation the ░░░░░░░░ before the Super Bowl ░░░░░░░░ us that was kind ░░░░░░░░ right in the wheelhouse ░░░░░░░░ all the things we ░░░░░░░░ about Formation took up ░░░░░░░░ issue of Hurricane Katrina ░░░░░░░░ of course as you ░░░░░░░░ I lived in post ░░░░░░░░ New Orleans My husband ░░░░░░░░ an advocate and civil ░░░░░░░░ attorney who did a ░░░░░░░░ of post Katrina work ░░░░░░░░ New Orleans And of ░░░░░░░░ our show had been ░░░░░░░░ about New Orleans for ░░░░░░░░ long time and frankly ░░░░░░░░ about Beyonc for a ░░░░░░░░ time So we immediately ░░░░░░░░ that we wanted to ░░░░░░░░ this video address the ░░░░░░░░ culture questions address the ░░░░░░░░ questions address the Black ░░░░░░░░ Matter imagery that emerged ░░░░░░░░ a result And we ░░░░░░░░ told not to do ░░░░░░░░ AMY GOODMAN What do ░░░░░░░░ mean Who told you ░░░░░░░░ to do so MELISSA ░░░░░░░░ Perry The sort of ░░░░░░░░ what s the word ░░░░░░░░ wasn t he s ░░░░░░░░ a producer on our ░░░░░░░░ but he was he ░░░░░░░░ the person Chris Pe ░░░░░░░░ who was sort of ░░░░░░░░ what happened on the ░░░░░░░░ And he simply came ░░░░░░░░ and said No you ░░░░░░░░ t do it And ░░░░░░░░ there was a back ░░░░░░░░ forth struggle for a ░░░░░░░░ hours AMY GOODMAN I ░░░░░░░░ in terms of ratings ░░░░░░░░ with Super Bowl and ░░░░░░░░ with Beyonc I can ░░░░░░░░ imagine you couldn t ░░░░░░░░ there would have been ░░░░░░░░ bigger audience for anything ░░░░░░░░ But also I mean ░░░░░░░░ Black Panther imagery the ░░░░░░░░ Harris Perry I don ░░░░░░░░ think it s about ░░░░░░░░ though This was never ░░░░░░░░ to me in any ░░░░░░░░ as being primarily a ░░░░░░░░ question It s really ░░░░░░░░ direction question It was ░░░░░░░░ and I want to ░░░░░░░░ really clear about something ░░░░░░░░ think in an organization ░░░░░░░░ on hierarchy that those ░░░░░░░░ the top have every ░░░░░░░░ to change direction And ░░░░░░░░ one of the things ░░░░░░░░ I think has gotten ░░░░░░░░ is as though I ░░░░░░░░ an argument with the ░░░░░░░░ change Now I do ░░░░░░░░ the sense that that ░░░░░░░░ t the direction I ░░░░░░░░ to go in but ░░░░░░░░ isn t really where ░░░░░░░░ sort of where the ░░░░░░░░ broke out I m ░░░░░░░░ leader of an organization ░░░░░░░░ ve changed direction in ░░░░░░░░ organization The issue was ░░░░░░░░ there was a directional ░░░░░░░░ that was not being ░░░░░░░░ either to me as ░░░░░░░░ employee or even more ░░░░░░░░ to my audience And ░░░░░░░░ what happened was we ░░░░░░░░ simply disappeared with no ░░░░░░░░ to the audience and ░░░░░░░░ I was going to ░░░░░░░░ of reappear as though ░░░░░░░░ was fine That for ░░░░░░░░ was what was unacceptable ░░░░░░░░ the email communication that ░░░░░░░░ leaked was about me ░░░░░░░░ to my team why ░░░░░░░░ was making their life ░░░░░░░░ by not coming back ░░░░░░░░ host And clearly the ░░░░░░░░ of it that ended ░░░░░░░░ in The New York ░░░░░░░░ were the most inflammatory ░░░░░░░░ potentially inflammatory portions relative ░░░░░░░░ race which is the ░░░░░░░░ at which I made ░░░░░░░░ decision to leak the ░░░░░░░░ letter so that people ░░░░░░░░ read the entire email ░░░░░░░░ make a decision on ░░░░░░░░ own about what they ░░░░░░░░ I was saying one ░░░░░░░░ or another But the ░░░░░░░░ wasn t that MSNBC ░░░░░░░░ a decision to go ░░░░░░░░ new direction That s ░░░░░░░░ right It s their ░░░░░░░░ It was that they ░░░░░░░░ t communicating it AMY ░░░░░░░░ But you are a ░░░░░░░░ professor You deal with ░░░░░░░░ is I mean MELISSA ░░░░░░░░ Perry I have a ░░░░░░░░ D in it that ░░░░░░░░ right AMY GOODMAN And ░░░░░░░░ we are in one ░░░░░░░░ the most contested elections ░░░░░░░░ have ever known MELISSA ░░░░░░░░ Perry Mm hmm AMY ░░░░░░░░ Your thoughts what you ░░░░░░░░ t say now on ░░░░░░░░ MELISSA Harris Perry Well ░░░░░░░░ guess what I d ░░░░░░░░ is for me what ░░░░░░░░ I have you know ░░░░░░░░ was interesting to listen ░░░░░░░░ Congressman Guti rrez stand ░░░░░░░░ and say that he ░░░░░░░░ politics in our show ░░░░░░░░ certainly felt that we ░░░░░░░░ completely capable of covering ░░░░░░░░ election We had covered ░░░░░░░░ previously We ve been ░░░░░░░░ air for four years ░░░░░░░░ we covered the 2012 ░░░░░░░░ AMY GOODMAN You were ░░░░░░░░ Iowa when your show ░░░░░░░░ in Iowa but you ░░░░░░░░ t on your show ░░░░░░░░ Harris Perry I did ░░░░░░░░ I did not well ░░░░░░░░ was on my show ░░░░░░░░ a guest but I ░░░░░░░░ not allowed to host ░░░░░░░░ own show Ari Melber ░░░░░░░░ my show I was ░░░░░░░░ guest on it That ░░░░░░░░ part of how we ░░░░░░░░ things were going wrong ░░░░░░░░ was not allowed to ░░░░░░░░ my own show nor ░░░░░░░░ I invited to be ░░░░░░░░ part of coverage in ░░░░░░░░ Hampshire I was not ░░░░░░░░ to host my show ░░░░░░░░ South Carolina despite the ░░░░░░░░ that I live in ░░░░░░░░ Carolina and was in ░░░░░░░░ Carolina I have no ░░░░░░░░ why No one communicated ░░░░░░░░ of those things to ░░░░░░░░ AMY GOODMAN You wrote ░░░░░░░░ your letter I will ░░░░░░░░ be used as a ░░░░░░░░ for their purposes This ░░░░░░░░ a letter that you ░░░░░░░░ to your staff You ░░░░░░░░ on I am not ░░░░░░░░ token mammy or little ░░░░░░░░ bobble head I am ░░░░░░░░ owned by Lack Griffin ░░░░░░░░ MSNBC I love our ░░░░░░░░ I want it back ░░░░░░░░ Harris Perry That s ░░░░░░░░ I did I loved ░░░░░░░░ show It s been ░░░░░░░░ for a little over ░░░░░░░░ month and I am ░░░░░░░░ even about how much ░░░░░░░░ miss it The people ░░░░░░░░ worked with turns out ░░░░░░░░ I said I didn ░░░░░░░░ know how few friends ░░░░░░░░ had until suddenly the ░░░░░░░░ who I talked to ░░░░░░░░ day for four years ░░░░░░░░ gone They were the ░░░░░░░░ I talked to about ░░░░░░░░ all the time and ░░░░░░░░ miss them profoundly That ░░░░░░░░ in the end when ░░░░░░░░ was invited to come ░░░░░░░░ to come back to ░░░░░░░░ those hours or to ░░░░░░░░ those hours but not ░░░░░░░░ host the show I ░░░░░░░░ felt that I was ░░░░░░░░ used in order to ░░░░░░░░ that everything was fine ░░░░░░░░ again everything was not ░░░░░░░░ When I talk about ░░░░░░░░ the symbol of mammy ░░░░░░░░ one kind of historically ░░░░░░░░ the African American woman ░░░░░░░░ more about the family ░░░░░░░░ the employer than about ░░░░░░░░ own family And what ░░░░░░░░ want to be really ░░░░░░░░ about was that I ░░░░░░░░ more about the MHP ░░░░░░░░ family about our audience ░░░░░░░░ our team than I ░░░░░░░░ about Andy Lack or ░░░░░░░░ Griffin s family their ░░░░░░░░ their ratings which seem ░░░░░░░░ be just fine Again ░░░░░░░░ wasn t an argument ░░░░░░░░ whether or not they ░░░░░░░░ making the right decisions ░░░░░░░░ their bottom line But ░░░░░░░░ my primary job is ░░░░░░░░ a college professor My ░░░░░░░░ intellectual personal and political ░░░░░░░░ are actually not about ░░░░░░░░ many TV minutes or ░░░░░░░░ I get I felt ░░░░░░░░ I needed to have ░░░░░░░░ communicated with clearly so ░░░░░░░░ I could make a ░░░░░░░░ about what direction I ░░░░░░░░ going in The decision ░░░░░░░░ not have a conversation ░░░░░░░░ me about any of ░░░░░░░░ the decision to leak ░░░░░░░░ only this information but ░░░░░░░░ information later when the ░░░░░░░░ started the attempt to ░░░░░░░░ me once we had ░░░░░░░░ struggle and particularly in ░░░░░░░░ context of MSNBC having ░░░░░░░░ Brian Williams and having ░░░░░░░░ public comments where they ░░░░░░░░ things like you know ░░░░░░░░ re in an NBC ░░░░░░░░ where second chances are ░░░░░░░░ possible where redemption is ░░░░░░░░ important part of who ░░░░░░░░ are it is frankly ░░░░░░░░ that after four years ░░░░░░░░ working extremely hard for ░░░░░░░░ people after giving up ░░░░░░░░ lot of family time ░░░░░░░░ personal time and professional ░░░░░░░░ to be discarded in ░░░░░░░░ way And so for ░░░░░░░░ although I don t ░░░░░░░░ what the reasons are ░░░░░░░░ am pleased that ultimately ░░░░░░░░ cared more about my ░░░░░░░░ than about theirs NERMEEN ░░░░░░░░ Well very quickly before ░░░░░░░░ conclude can you talk ░░░░░░░░ your experience in the ░░░░░░░░ of the concept crooked ░░░░░░░░ that you talk about ░░░░░░░░ your book Sister Citizen ░░░░░░░░ Harris Perry You know ░░░░░░░░ probably can t only ░░░░░░░░ I don t know ░░░░░░░░ we can analyze ourselves ░░░░░░░░ that way Sister Citizen ░░░░░░░░ about the stereotypes that ░░░░░░░░ American women are bound ░░░░░░░░ so the ways that ░░░░░░░░ think that we know ░░░░░░░░ black women are based ░░░░░░░░ some very old stereotypes ░░░░░░░░ mammy of Jezebel of ░░░░░░░░ angry black woman And ░░░░░░░░ I sometimes feel like ░░░░░░░░ see them happening particularly ░░░░░░░░ the context of media ░░░░░░░░ social media But the ░░░░░░░░ is we re not ░░░░░░░░ honest about who we ░░░░░░░░ as ourselves None of ░░░░░░░░ can see ourselves very ░░░░░░░░ It s kind of ░░░░░░░░ we can t hear ░░░░░░░░ sound of our own ░░░░░░░░ because of how it ░░░░░░░░ So I will leave ░░░░░░░░ to others to write ░░░░░░░░ thought pieces about that ░░░░░░░░ GOODMAN Well we want ░░░░░░░░ ask you to stay ░░░░░░░░ us and we ll ░░░░░░░░ a post show with ░░░░░░░░ MELISSA Harris-Perry: Sure.