RUSH TRANSCRIPT An acclaimed ░░░░░░░░ who s been tracking ░░░░░░░░ for years on what ░░░░░░░░ knows But we start ░░░░░░░░ our guests here tonight ░░░░░░░░ have Joyce Vance former ░░░░░░░░ S attorney and MSNBC ░░░░░░░░ analyst and norm eisen ░░░░░░░░ Obama ethics czar and ░░░░░░░░ founder of the ethics ░░░░░░░░ group Joyce thank you ░░░░░░░░ being here I ll ░░░░░░░░ with you How strange ░░░░░░░░ it for the number ░░░░░░░░ at the DoJ to ░░░░░░░░ to Florida and conduct ░░░░░░░░ interview like this one ░░░░░░░░ m not Sure strange ░░░░░░░░ begins to capture this ░░░░░░░░ s completely unprecedented You ░░░░░░░░ this is work for ░░░░░░░░ who are handling cases ░░░░░░░░ know all Of the ░░░░░░░░ They re capable Of ░░░░░░░░ the witnesses But Oops ░░░░░░░░ s No way to ░░░░░░░░ the lead prosecutor on ░░░░░░░░ case conduct an interview ░░░░░░░░ they ve just fired ░░░░░░░░ Comey the ausa and ░░░░░░░░ Southern District of New ░░░░░░░░ who prosecuted this case ░░░░░░░░ beyond that there is ░░░░░░░░ case Antonia the Justice ░░░░░░░░ came out on July ░░░░░░░░ With a statement Saying ░░░░░░░░ was no one left ░░░░░░░░ be prosecuted So there ░░░░░░░░ a real question about ░░░░░░░░ Todd Blanche is doing ░░░░░░░░ in Florida It doesn ░░░░░░░░ look like the Justice ░░░░░░░░ s work It looks ░░░░░░░░ the president s work ░░░░░░░░ that casts a real ░░░░░░░░ tinge over all of ░░░░░░░░ Norm do you see ░░░░░░░░ as kind of ethically ░░░░░░░░ for a few reasons ░░░░░░░░ mean she just spelled ░░░░░░░░ there Todd Blanche having ░░░░░░░░ in a personal capacity ░░░░░░░░ the president And then ░░░░░░░░ was reminded today that ░░░░░░░░ actually at one point ░░░░░░░░ on David Marcus that ░░░░░░░░ maxwell s attorney s ░░░░░░░░ They know each other ░░░░░░░░ a sort of social ░░░░░░░░ at least casual way ░░░░░░░░ do you see something ░░░░░░░░ murky here blanche Going ░░░░░░░░ meet With miss Maxwell ░░░░░░░░ with Her defense lawyer ░░░░░░░░ being Donald Trump s ░░░░░░░░ lawyer And then Maxwell ░░░░░░░░ has been Convicted of ░░░░░░░░ heinous crimes And the ░░░░░░░░ Department of Justice that ░░░░░░░░ Blanche purports to represent ░░░░░░░░ her as a liar ░░░░░░░░ looks Like a cover ░░░░░░░░ of What Donald Trump ░░░░░░░░ or may not have ░░░░░░░░ And when you put ░░░░░░░░ together with the fact ░░░░░░░░ Trump is in the ░░░░░░░░ files they haven t ░░░░░░░░ that material you have ░░░░░░░░ wonder Can we Rely ░░░░░░░░ whatever comes out of ░░░░░░░░ unsavory meeting Today in ░░░░░░░░ administrations for far less ░░░░░░░░ a conflict Antonia they ░░░░░░░░ bring In An independent ░░░░░░░░ or a special counsel ░░░░░░░░ there s no whiff ░░░░░░░░ this But in those ░░░░░░░░ you didn t have ░░░░░░░░ president s Former defense ░░░░░░░░ as The number two ░░░░░░░░ the Department of Justice ░░░░░░░░ the whole thing reeks ░░░░░░░░ high heaven I think ░░░░░░░░ of the reason that ░░░░░░░░ is so gripping Washington ░░░░░░░░ the American People Donald ░░░░░░░░ s poll numbers Are ░░░░░░░░ now 37 in the ░░░░░░░░ poll today is because ░░░░░░░░ speaks to a larger ░░░░░░░░ of corruption Donald Trump ░░░░░░░░ in The white House ░░░░░░░░ tens of millions Of ░░░░░░░░ for himself off of ░░░░░░░░ office Donald Trump is ░░░░░░░░ the law over About ░░░░░░░░ courts have said you ░░░░░░░░ breaking the law in ░░░░░░░░ official acts He s ░░░░░░░░ these innocent migrants These ░░░░░░░░ not criminals These are ░░░░░░░░ working people who ve ░░░░░░░░ to our country to ░░░░░░░░ jobs So there s ░░░░░░░░ larger sense of corruption ░░░░░░░░ s perfectly captured by ░░░░░░░░ Trump here Having buddied ░░░░░░░░ with the rich and ░░░░░░░░ who victimized Jeffrey Epstein ░░░░░░░░ the most vulnerable That ░░░░░░░░ a slogan for the ░░░░░░░░ Administration benefiting the rich ░░░░░░░░ powerful Trump s cronies ░░░░░░░░ the most vulnerable in ░░░░░░░░ country That s why ░░░░░░░░ has such traction And ░░░░░░░░ s why we re ░░░░░░░░ to see Democrats to ░░░░░░░░ on this and get ░░░░░░░░ little bit more comfortable ░░░░░░░░ the space because they ░░░░░░░░ starting I ve had ░░░░░░░░ with them in recent ░░░░░░░░ where they re starting ░░░░░░░░ connect the Epstein case ░░░░░░░░ the fighting oligarchy tour ░░░░░░░░ we ve seen Sanders ░░░░░░░░ so many others join ░░░░░░░░ on in recent days ░░░░░░░░ they re picking up ░░░░░░░░ the fact that the ░░░░░░░░ public seems to already ░░░░░░░░ actually drawn all those ░░░░░░░░ It might be D ░░░░░░░░ That was last to ░░░░░░░░ how this whole framework ░░░░░░░░ Exactly So all too ░░░░░░░░ our political leaders follow ░░░░░░░░ heart and mind of ░░░░░░░░ public Perhaps it should ░░░░░░░░ the other way but ░░░░░░░░ declining poll numbers really ░░░░░░░░ the American people are ░░░░░░░░ of the corruption And ░░░░░░░░ Epstein scandal is just ░░░░░░░░ latest example of the ░░░░░░░░ We see the pictures ░░░░░░░░ see the video Donald ░░░░░░░░ is clearly close to ░░░░░░░░ heinous individual And then ░░░░░░░░ know there s documents ░░░░░░░░ not release the documents ░░░░░░░░ the democracy defenders fund ░░░░░░░░ I m now the ░░░░░░░░ we filed foia requests ░░░░░░░░ we re prepared to ░░░░░░░░ those foia requests We ░░░░░░░░ not going to rest ░░░░░░░░ we get these Trump ░░░░░░░░ files Joyce I want ░░░░░░░░ take on what we ░░░░░░░░ even get from ghislaine ░░░░░░░░ Obviously today when her ░░░░░░░░ spoke they didn t ░░░░░░░░ us much detail other ░░░░░░░░ to say you know ░░░░░░░░ answered every single question ░░░░░░░░ kind of thing But ░░░░░░░░ I laid out at ░░░░░░░░ top of the show ░░░░░░░░ has a reputation I ░░░░░░░░ prosecutors laid it out ░░░░░░░░ part of their story ░░░░░░░░ case against her that ░░░░░░░░ is a liar a ░░░░░░░░ player a fabricator So ░░░░░░░░ are we to do ░░░░░░░░ what we ultimately find ░░░░░░░░ She has told Todd ░░░░░░░░ in the d o ░░░░░░░░ So it s Important ░░░░░░░░ think about the fact ░░░░░░░░ this is ghislaine maxwell ░░░░░░░░ to the Justice Department ░░░░░░░░ the Justice Department s ░░░░░░░░ is to prosecute cases ░░░░░░░░ s not to be ░░░░░░░░ purveyor Of truth to ░░░░░░░░ American people That s ░░░░░░░░ in Congress s wheelhouse ░░░░░░░░ what we re Asking ░░░░░░░░ really is what can ░░░░░░░░ Person As a witness ░░░░░░░░ to a future prosecution ░░░░░░░░ look we don t ░░░░░░░░ why the government originally ░░░░░░░░ On signing her up ░░░░░░░░ a witness but I ░░░░░░░░ make an educated guess ░░░░░░░░ spent 25 years at ░░░░░░░░ o j she s ░░░░░░░░ witness I would have ░░░░░░░░ to have had against ░░░░░░░░ Epstein And I would ░░░░░░░░ given her a deal ░░░░░░░░ not a great one ░░░░░░░░ some kind of a ░░░░░░░░ in Exchange for that ░░░░░░░░ Because the person You ░░░░░░░░ want to prosecute is ░░░░░░░░ person at the top ░░░░░░░░ most responsible person So ░░░░░░░░ o j would have ░░░░░░░░ to sign her up ░░░░░░░░ they apparently concluded Either ░░░░░░░░ She didn t have ░░░░░░░░ Testimony Which seems extremely ░░░░░░░░ here Or that She ░░░░░░░░ not a reliable witness ░░░░░░░░ she wouldn t tell ░░░░░░░░ truth that she failed ░░░░░░░░ disclose all the crimes ░░░░░░░░ she and Others Participated ░░░░░░░░ There was a reason ░░░░░░░░ even if we don ░░░░░░░░ Know it So that ░░░░░░░░ a real Question as ░░░░░░░░ why they re Talking ░░░░░░░░ her There is really ░░░░░░░░ way to guarantee her ░░░░░░░░ in this setting And ░░░░░░░░ norm says it has ░░░░░░░░ appearance of people trying ░░░░░░░░ get their story straight ░░░░░░░░ looks more like a ░░░░░░░░ Defense agreement In the ░░░░░░░░ than It looks like ░░░░░░░░ Trying to figure out ░░░░░░░░ way to witness has ░░░░░░░░ say Because there s ░░░░░░░░ No case here to ░░░░░░░░ It s so the ░░░░░░░░ thing too that I ░░░░░░░░ I wonder Difficult to ░░░░░░░░ It the other piece ░░░░░░░░ this and correct me ░░░░░░░░ of you if I ░░░░░░░░ wrong here is it ░░░░░░░░ like this is also ░░░░░░░░ very quickly This is ░░░░░░░░ very complicated case involving ░░░░░░░░ vast network a lot ░░░░░░░░ money a heinous crimes ░░░░░░░░ the victims been given ░░░░░░░░ time to be consulted ░░░░░░░░ we see all of ░░░░░░░░ steps the subpoenas moving ░░░░░░░░ quickly Todd Blanche flying ░░░░░░░░ Florida is the pace ░░░░░░░░ at all a concern ░░░░░░░░ you both Well it ░░░░░░░░ a concern to judge ░░░░░░░░ engelmayer here in the ░░░░░░░░ District of New York ░░░░░░░░ has that grand jury ░░░░░░░░ matter And in fact ░░░░░░░░ told d o j ░░░░░░░░ down Have you considered ░░░░░░░░ rights of the victims ░░░░░░░░ he set a schedule ░░░░░░░░ briefing You have to ░░░░░░░░ yourself if they re ░░░░░░░░ to release the most ░░░░░░░░ material And I learned ░░░░░░░░ lot that I know ░░░░░░░░ rule 60 that governs ░░░░░░░░ jury material from my ░░░░░░░░ Joyce Vance If they ░░░░░░░░ willing to release the ░░░░░░░░ sensitive material in government ░░░░░░░░ jury material what about ░░░░░░░░ rest of the files ░░░░░░░░ about the Trump Epstein ░░░░░░░░ Why not put it ░░░░░░░░ out there You have ░░░░░░░░ think Well maybe there ░░░░░░░░ something negative in there ░░░░░░░░ Donald Trump but we ░░░░░░░░ t know because they ░░░░░░░░ to be cherry picking ░░░░░░░░ the maxwell meeting with ░░░░░░░░ grand jury materials Joyce ░░░░░░░░ quick last word Well ░░░░░░░░ think that s the ░░░░░░░░ issue is norm says ░░░░░░░░ know that there are ░░░░░░░░ 100 000 documents in ░░░░░░░░ case something like 300 ░░░░░░░░ pages that could include ░░░░░░░░ evidence too If you ░░░░░░░░ To know what happened ░░░░░░░░ release that evidence These ░░░░░░░░ jury transcripts It s ░░░░░░░░ Just A summary FBI ░░░░░░░░ testifying to the grand ░░░░░░░░ perhaps a little bit ░░░░░░░░ than that If you ░░░░░░░░ to Find Out the ░░░░░░░░ Release the documents D ░░░░░░░░ j reviewed them They ░░░░░░░░ What s in them ░░░░░░░░ fact that there s ░░░░░░░░ call for their release ░░░░░░░░ to me that there ░░░░░░░░ information to be