RUSH TRANSCRIPT Call one ░░░░░░░░ 845 4316 CNN this ░░░░░░░░ with Audie Cornish weekdays ░░░░░░░░ 6 A M on ░░░░░░░░ Live pictures here you ░░░░░░░░ see the sun now ░░░░░░░░ in Vatican City as ░░░░░░░░ are filing in there ░░░░░░░░ of them you can ░░░░░░░░ almost running in as ░░░░░░░░ heard from our correspondent ░░░░░░░░ Wedeman on the ground ░░░░░░░░ people sleeping out overnight ░░░░░░░░ the hopes that they ░░░░░░░░ be able to make ░░░░░░░░ way into saint Peter ░░░░░░░░ square to be there ░░░░░░░░ this funeral mass Of ░░░░░░░░ a number of dignitaries ░░░░░░░░ also be in attendance ░░░░░░░░ of them already arriving ░░░░░░░░ Italy last night The ░░░░░░░░ simple wooden coffin of ░░░░░░░░ Francis was sealed in ░░░░░░░░ private rite officially ending ░░░░░░░░ days of his lying ░░░░░░░░ state at the vatican ░░░░░░░░ course this was something ░░░░░░░░ the pope himself had ░░░░░░░░ A simpler coffin was ░░░░░░░░ of them Also where ░░░░░░░░ would like to be ░░░░░░░░ This single coffin the ░░░░░░░░ one far more elaborate ░░░░░░░░ nested coffins of cypress ░░░░░░░░ and oak Christopher bellitto ░░░░░░░░ a professor of history ░░░░░░░░ kean university a church ░░░░░░░░ and the author of ░░░░░░░░ questions and answers on ░░░░░░░░ and the papacy And ░░░░░░░░ s joining us from ░░░░░░░░ New Jersey So you ░░░░░░░░ the person to answer ░░░░░░░░ of our questions There ░░░░░░░░ been there s been ░░░░░░░░ much made about the ░░░░░░░░ sort of toning things ░░░░░░░░ a little bit which ░░░░░░░░ what Pope Francis wanted ░░░░░░░░ these final moments Right ░░░░░░░░ his funeral mass Also ░░░░░░░░ he will be buried ░░░░░░░░ is also indicative of ░░░░░░░░ really who he was ░░░░░░░░ Very much And it ░░░░░░░░ it continues a toning ░░░░░░░░ of the of the ░░░░░░░░ since the second vatican ░░░░░░░░ which met in the ░░░░░░░░ So the last really ░░░░░░░░ funeral was in 1963 ░░░░░░░░ starting in 1978 Paul ░░░░░░░░ sixth who was kind ░░░░░░░░ a model pope for ░░░░░░░░ someone very interested in ░░░░░░░░ if that s a ░░░░░░░░ the church His coffin ░░░░░░░░ a simple wooden coffin ░░░░░░░░ an open book of ░░░░░░░░ gospels on it and ░░░░░░░░ dramatically the wind kind ░░░░░░░░ turns the pages And ░░░░░░░░ s exactly what happened ░░░░░░░░ 1978 for Paul the ░░░░░░░░ and then the sudden ░░░░░░░░ of John Paul the ░░░░░░░░ After 33 days the ░░░░░░░░ simple coffin So too ░░░░░░░░ John Paul the second ░░░░░░░░ 2005 and then pope ░░░░░░░░ benedict xvi And so ░░░░░░░░ is continuing that one ░░░░░░░░ of really big change ░░░░░░░░ We could see from ░░░░░░░░ photographs is that up ░░░░░░░░ now the pope s ░░░░░░░░ was kind of presented ░░░░░░░░ a funeral bier with ░░░░░░░░ around it kind of ░░░░░░░░ on a table You ░░░░░░░░ notice in the pictures ░░░░░░░░ ve seen in the ░░░░░░░░ couple of days that ░░░░░░░░ pope is in a ░░░░░░░░ in the same way ░░░░░░░░ we have all seen ░░░░░░░░ once what some traditions ░░░░░░░░ a viewing or others ░░░░░░░░ We ve just been ░░░░░░░░ a massive wake and ░░░░░░░░ pope was simply in ░░░░░░░░ coffin as we ve ░░░░░░░░ many other people as ░░░░░░░░ At the end of ░░░░░░░░ life after all of ░░░░░░░░ honors and all of ░░░░░░░░ titles he returns to ░░░░░░░░ father s house as ░░░░░░░░ is said as another ░░░░░░░░ believer There s been ░░░░░░░░ much about his legacy ░░░░░░░░ know you ve said ░░░░░░░░ when we look at ░░░░░░░░ legacy it s also ░░░░░░░░ about a about process ░░░░░░░░ the openness that everybody ░░░░░░░░ a chance to be ░░░░░░░░ part of this Everybody ░░░░░░░░ a chance to speak ░░░░░░░░ also to listen That ░░░░░░░░ also very important to ░░░░░░░░ in terms of that ░░░░░░░░ that he was giving ░░░░░░░░ setting the example Yeah ░░░░░░░░ talked about humble listening ░░░░░░░░ and he is a ░░░░░░░░ and that is a ░░░░░░░░ important process for jesuits ░░░░░░░░ s called discernment And ░░░░░░░░ it means throwing everything ░░░░░░░░ the wall and seeing ░░░░░░░░ s going to stick ░░░░░░░░ he used a greek ░░░░░░░░ parrhesia which means boldness ░░░░░░░░ said in his first ░░░░░░░░ of bishops Let no ░░░░░░░░ say this can t ░░░░░░░░ said And it s ░░░░░░░░ in the last several ░░░░░░░░ bishops had and complained ░░░░░░░░ been coming to to ░░░░░░░░ and and been given ░░░░░░░░ know marching orders And ░░░░░░░░ said no one was ░░░░░░░░ to us in the ░░░░░░░░ And so he very ░░░░░░░░ wanted to change that ░░░░░░░░ process which really culminated ░░░░░░░░ the synod of synods ░░░░░░░░ was a worldwide listening ░░░░░░░░ where people listened to ░░░░░░░░ other in parishes and ░░░░░░░░ at dioceses and then ░░░░░░░░ archdiocese and then finally ░░░░░░░░ rome in two sessions ░░░░░░░░ October of 2024 and ░░░░░░░░ 2025 How would you ░░░░░░░░ His time as pope ░░░░░░░░ s been so much ░░░░░░░░ about him doing things ░░░░░░░░ And yet a number ░░░░░░░░ people I ve spoken ░░░░░░░░ over the last several ░░░░░░░░ have said it s ░░░░░░░░ really that he was ░░░░░░░░ things differently it s ░░░░░░░░ that you re seeing ░░░░░░░░ of it But it ░░░░░░░░ not so much that ░░░░░░░░ did change the church ░░░░░░░░ you agree with that ░░░░░░░░ mean where do you ░░░░░░░░ on sort of upholding ░░░░░░░░ traditions which obviously he ░░░░░░░░ but also ushering in ░░░░░░░░ Well I think that ░░░░░░░░ people didn t want ░░░░░░░░ like him And so ░░░░░░░░ their answer was he ░░░░░░░░ changing doctrine And I ░░░░░░░░ on asking what doctrine ░░░░░░░░ he change And he ░░░░░░░░ precisely one doctrine which ░░░░░░░░ that he said in ░░░░░░░░ catechism of the Catholic ░░░░░░░░ that the death penalty ░░░░░░░░ now inadmissible We can ░░░░░░░░ imagine any circumstance in ░░░░░░░░ the death penalty would ░░░░░░░░ I ve had people ░░░░░░░░ to me well he ░░░░░░░░ communion in the hand ░░░░░░░░ that happened many years ░░░░░░░░ He didn t make ░░░░░░░░ change And in fact ░░░░░░░░ reaches all the way ░░░░░░░░ to the early church ░░░░░░░░ so that that charge ░░░░░░░░ think his style was ░░░░░░░░ very different style And ░░░░░░░░ you look at the ░░░░░░░░ of the church different ░░░░░░░░ call for different types ░░░░░░░░ people John Paul the ░░░░░░░░ was primarily a diplomat ░░░░░░░░ really really knew in ░░░░░░░░ best sense how to ░░░░░░░░ a politician not the ░░░░░░░░ of that word How ░░░░░░░░ get things done Benedict ░░░░░░░░ himself as a teacher ░░░░░░░░ a professor Francis saw ░░░░░░░░ as a pastor Not ░░░░░░░░ the other two weren ░░░░░░░░ pastors of course And ░░░░░░░░ that was his general ░░░░░░░░ And his pastor approach ░░░░░░░░ to his other Bishop ░░░░░░░░ bishops and priests you ░░░░░░░░ to get out there ░░░░░░░░ got to get off ░░░░░░░░ pulpit You got to ░░░░░░░░ out of the door ░░░░░░░░ you have to go ░░░░░░░░ and listen to people ░░░░░░░░ accompany people where they ░░░░░░░░ especially the people who ░░░░░░░░ no one to pray ░░░░░░░░ them no one to ░░░░░░░░ care of them So ░░░░░░░░ saw this and I ░░░░░░░░ he read the moment ░░░░░░░░ Because the last 10 ░░░░░░░░ what have we seen ░░░░░░░░ the world this global ░░░░░░░░ this this increased lack ░░░░░░░░ care for the people ░░░░░░░░ are cast off from ░░░░░░░░ And please remember that ░░░░░░░░ Paul the second was ░░░░░░░░ much a critic of ░░░░░░░░ as he was of ░░░░░░░░ Yeah Christopher polito great ░░░░░░░░ have you with us ░░░░░░░░ Really appreciate the insight ░░░░░░░░ your expertise Thank you ░░░░░░░░ for having me We ░░░░░░░░ also get you caught ░░░░░░░░ on some of the ░░░░░░░░ news of the day ░░░░░░░░ we are following a ░░░░░░░░ Wisconsin judge now facing ░░░░░░░░ charges of allegedly obstructing ░░░░░░░░ agents and helping