[Music Bloomberg audio Studios ░░░░░░░░ radio news you re ░░░░░░░░ to Bloomberg business week ░░░░░░░░ Carol masser and Tim ░░░░░░░░ on Bloomberg Radio well ░░░░░░░░ we ve been talking ░░░░░░░░ all day plans to ░░░░░░░░ a critical minerals deal ░░░░░░░░ the US and Ukraine ░░░░░░░░ scrapped after Donald Trump ░░░░░░░░ meeting Friday with volodimir ░░░░░░░░ quickly devolved into a ░░░░░░░░ exchange over the Ukrainian ░░░░░░░░ doubts that the US ░░░░░░░░ s efforts to broker ░░░░░░░░ deal with Russia would ░░░░░░░░ lasting peace we know ░░░░░░░░ zalinsky Departed the White ░░░░░░░░ following that spat and ░░░░░░░░ planed signing ceremony that ░░░░░░░░ conference was cancelled it ░░░░░░░░ unclear what happens next ░░░░░░░░ this point really curious ░░░░░░░░ Greta uling thinks about ░░░░░░░░ of this and also ░░░░░░░░ the big picture because ░░░░░░░░ s a cultural Anthropologist ░░░░░░░░ a Ukraine expert she ░░░░░░░░ professor of international and ░░░░░░░░ studies at the University ░░░░░░░░ Michigan she s the ░░░░░░░░ of the new book ░░░░░░░░ Ukraine the indigenous people ░░░░░░░░ Crimea and Pathways to ░░░░░░░░ she joins this afternoon ░░░░░░░░ an Arbor Michigan Professor ░░░░░░░░ to have you with ░░░░░░░░ a very timely book ░░░░░░░░ we re we re ░░░░░░░░ to have you on ░░░░░░░░ day where we re ░░░░░░░░ so much about what ░░░░░░░░ happening in Ukraine why ░░░░░░░░ it important to understand ░░░░░░░░ indigenous history of this ░░░░░░░░ group in Ukraine in ░░░░░░░░ context of the Ukraine ░░░░░░░░ that s being fought ░░░░░░░░ now yes um well ░░░░░░░░ for having me decolonizing ░░░░░░░░ basically refers ref to ░░░░░░░░ s process of ridding ░░░░░░░░ of the effects of ░░░░░░░░ domination politically economically culturally ░░░░░░░░ psychologically current events amplify ░░░░░░░░ book s Central findings ░░░░░░░░ the United States is ░░░░░░░░ a colonial attitude toward ░░░░░░░░ countries that it seeks ░░░░░░░░ dominate now Ukraine is ░░░░░░░░ a position to rid ░░░░░░░░ of uh Russian military ░░░░░░░░ and this enabling environment ░░░░░░░░ has been created by ░░░░░░░░ the American uh Administration ░░░░░░░░ the book A major ░░░░░░░░ of this is um ░░░░░░░░ of the cognitive dimensions ░░░░░░░░ this and I think ░░░░░░░░ um you know as ░░░░░░░░ whole the book looks ░░░░░░░░ how uh Ukraine sort ░░░░░░░░ transformed itself since the ░░░░░░░░ and that s where ░░░░░░░░ indigenous people come in ░░░░░░░░ it was after the ░░░░░░░░ occupation of Crimea that ░░░░░░░░ of them fled okay ░░░░░░░░ that provided paradoxically a ░░░░░░░░ important opportunity for um ░░░░░░░░ indigenous crian tar and ░░░░░░░░ Ukrainians to begin to ░░░░░░░░ how much they had ░░░░░░░░ common and to begin ░░░░░░░░ strategize together about their ░░░░░░░░ Professor forgive me I ░░░░░░░░ to jump in because ░░░░░░░░ only have a few ░░░░░░░░ with you and as ░░░░░░░░ were preparing for this ░░░░░░░░ we talked about our ░░░░░░░░ that we had yesterday ░░░░░░░░ Alexander vinman uh who ░░░░░░░░ spent many years uh ░░░░░░░░ the region he was ░░░░░░░░ born in Ukraine and ░░░░░░░░ asked him yesterday in ░░░░░░░░ conversation that we had ░░░░░░░░ him what Russia ultimately ░░░░░░░░ and and he said ░░░░░░░░ wants all of Ukraine ░░░░░░░░ he talked about the ░░░░░░░░ of Russia seeing Ukraine ░░░░░░░░ part of Russia how ░░░░░░░░ that statement gel with ░░░░░░░░ you found out about ░░░░░░░░ are the indigenous people ░░░░░░░░ Crimea who are the ░░░░░░░░ people of Ukraine and ░░░░░░░░ is their connection to ░░░░░░░░ right uh well that ░░░░░░░░ a great question because ░░░░░░░░ indigenous people have a ░░░░░░░░ of experience with this ░░░░░░░░ been colonized first by ░░░░░░░░ in 1783 and basically ░░░░░░░░ would concur with him ░░░░░░░░ state that we saw ░░░░░░░░ very clearly when Russia ░░░░░░░░ occupied the Crimean Peninsula ░░░░░░░░ the when they occupied ░░░░░░░░ Crimean Peninsula um they ░░░░░░░░ to basically rid it ░░░░░░░░ the indigenous people who ░░░░░░░░ formly 95 of the ░░░░░░░░ and replace the population ░░░░░░░░ Russians right so hundreds ░░░░░░░░ thousands of Russians have ░░░░░░░░ into Crimea um and ░░░░░░░░ this process right they ░░░░░░░░ basically replaced the indigenous ░░░░░░░░ with their own and ░░░░░░░░ that becomes a platform ░░░░░░░░ trying to justify these ░░░░░░░░ incursions well and I ░░░░░░░░ about you know it ░░░░░░░░ been an interesting day ░░░░░░░░ s been an interesting ░░░░░░░░ it s been an ░░░░░░░░ three years uh and ░░░░░░░░ rough three years in ░░░░░░░░ of watching uh the ░░░░░░░░ between the U uh ░░░░░░░░ Russia and Ukraine forgive ░░░░░░░░ um I do think ░░░░░░░░ our audience who are ░░░░░░░░ to you and this ░░░░░░░░ you know um a ░░░░░░░░ of the population correct ░░░░░░░░ Ukraine why do you ░░░░░░░░ it s important that ░░░░░░░░ really understand um um ░░░░░░░░ and the pl of ░░░░░░░░ indigenous people of Ukraine ░░░░░░░░ know I think that ░░░░░░░░ is a strong parallel ░░░░░░░░ be made with the ░░░░░░░░ States struggle to provide ░░░░░░░░ and dignity to the ░░░░░░░░ population in the in ░░░░░░░░ so that s one ░░░░░░░░ I think it also ░░░░░░░░ to do with um ░░░░░░░░ know the book is ░░░░░░░░ a study in resilience ░░░░░░░░ Americans are going to ░░░░░░░░ a lot of resilience ░░░░░░░░ in coming years because ░░░░░░░░ um you know Russia ░░░░░░░░ stopping at um Ukrainian ░░░░░░░░ there there are like ░░░░░░░░ food security issues nuclear ░░░░░░░░ issues um environmental issues ░░░░░░░░ course energy is a ░░░░░░░░ um as well as ░░░░░░░░ potential for more mass ░░░░░░░░ and Territorial incursions and ░░░░░░░░ basically it s about ░░░░░░░░ the kind of world ░░░░░░░░ we want to live ░░░░░░░░ do we want to ░░░░░░░░ in a world where ░░░░░░░░ is the rule of ░░░░░░░░ and everybody has dignity ░░░░░░░░ opportunities um or do ░░░░░░░░ want to live in ░░░░░░░░ world where that s ░░░░░░░░ the case it seems ░░░░░░░░ it s not a ░░░░░░░░ of what we want ░░░░░░░░ or the type of ░░░░░░░░ we want to live ░░░░░░░░ it s a it ░░░░░░░░ a question of how ░░░░░░░░ war ends at this ░░░░░░░░ given what happened today ░░░░░░░░ and zilinsky failing to ░░░░░░░░ a deal after that ░░░░░░░░ at the White House ░░░░░░░░ don t know what ░░░░░░░░ next as I mentioned ░░░░░░░░ certainly I think a ░░░░░░░░ of people are describing ░░░░░░░░ as off the rails ░░░░░░░░ now how do you ░░░░░░░░ this war ends I ░░░░░░░░ agree that it s ░░░░░░░░ the rails and I ░░░░░░░░ agree that uh what ░░░░░░░░ in the Oval Office ░░░░░░░░ was deeply unfortunate and ░░░░░░░░ don t know how ░░░░░░░░ war ends but the ░░░░░░░░ thing I know is ░░░░░░░░ Ukraine will not allow ░░░░░░░░ to be humiliated Ukraine ░░░░░░░░ keep fighting we may ░░░░░░░░ that in 2022 when ░░░░░░░░ launched its full scale ░░░░░░░░ against uh Ukraine they ░░░░░░░░ virtu alone and they ░░░░░░░░ know in those first ░░░░░░░░ they were on their ░░░░░░░░ and they repelled we ░░░░░░░░ also look at you ░░░░░░░░ Russia has not been ░░░░░░░░ to um rid the ░░░░░░░░ region of Ukrainian forces ░░░░░░░░ hasn t really been ░░░░░░░░ significant Territorial incursions and ░░░░░░░░ before President Biden left ░░░░░░░░ um you know he ░░░░░░░░ careful to um send ░░░░░░░░ Ukraine everything that he ░░░░░░░░ so I think that ░░░░░░░░ ukra Ukrainians are going ░░░░░░░░ hold the line I ░░░░░░░░ that we have a ░░░░░░░░ bit of time for ░░░░░░░░ to better assess the ░░░░░░░░ and um I think ░░░░░░░░ um basically it s ░░░░░░░░ important for there to ░░░░░░░░ security guarantees and Ukraine ░░░░░░░░ never sign an agreement ░░░░░░░░ they don t know ░░░░░░░░ they re getting in ░░░░░░░░ I m curious um ░░░░░░░░ are someone who has ░░░░░░░░ um Ukraine understand it ░░░░░░░░ I I do wonder ░░░░░░░░ or not you think ░░░░░░░░ zalinski there s pressure ░░░░░░░░ him internally to step ░░░░░░░░ it certainly felt like ░░░░░░░░ might be some of ░░░░░░░░ coming externally uh from ░░░░░░░░ United States at this ░░░░░░░░ but what do you ░░░░░░░░ about internally and from ░░░░░░░░ members as well or ░░░░░░░░ European nations who are ░░░░░░░░ closer to Ukraine than ░░░░░░░░ United States is right ░░░░░░░░ um you know it ░░░░░░░░ s important not to ░░░░░░░░ about the whole Ukrainian ░░░░░░░░ he has his detractors ░░░░░░░░ his supporters and I ░░░░░░░░ that Ukrainians agree that ░░░░░░░░ know in the context ░░░░░░░░ a war they can ░░░░░░░░ hold election so I ░░░░░░░░ t think his he ░░░░░░░░ has his critics but ░░░░░░░░ don t think it ░░░░░░░░ to the level of ░░░░░░░░ s remove zalinski I ░░░░░░░░ not hearing that at ░░░░░░░░ what what message would ░░░░░░░░ have have for American ░░░░░░░░ who say this is ░░░░░░░░ the problem of Americans ░░░░░░░░ what is happening in ░░░░░░░░ is not something that ░░░░░░░░ American wants to pay ░░░░░░░░ defend and we certainly ░░░░░░░░ that play out during ░░░░░░░░ election and we ve ░░░░░░░░ that play out a ░░░░░░░░ in Congress over the ░░░░░░░░ couple of years whenever ░░░░░░░░ fight for funding comes ░░░░░░░░ what s your message ░░░░░░░░ them my message to ░░░░░░░░ is that actually this ░░░░░░░░ have to do with ░░░░░░░░ United States um you ░░░░░░░░ Vance s statement that ░░░░░░░░ zalinsky hadn t said ░░░░░░░░ You suggests that the ░░░░░░░░ think that they re ░░░░░░░░ Ukraine a gift this ░░░░░░░░ not a gift it ░░░░░░░░ an entitlement right Ukraine ░░░░░░░░ a sovereign state and ░░░░░░░░ 1994 we signed security ░░░░░░░░ that if their territorial ░░░░░░░░ was violated we would ░░░░░░░░ them militarily so we ░░░░░░░░ to this and if ░░░░░░░░ want to maintain our ░░░░░░░░ in an International System ░░░░░░░░ nation states we will ░░░░░░░░ by our word failure ░░░░░░░░ do so means we ░░░░░░░░ not a credible partner ░░░░░░░░ Ally for anyone furthermore ░░░░░░░░ siding with Russia destabilizes ░░░░░░░░ um transatlantic partnership that ░░░░░░░░ ve had for 80 ░░░░░░░░ um it incentivizes countries ░░░░░░░░ develop nuclear weapons right ░░░░░░░░ that 1994 agreement Ukraine ░░░░░░░░ to give up its ░░░░░░░░ uh capacities in exchange ░░░░░░░░ security guarantees well now ░░░░░░░░ have an incentive to ░░░░░░░░ for everybody to De ░░░░░░░░ every country to develop ░░░░░░░░ own nuclear weapons um ░░░░░░░░ rewards a person who ░░░░░░░░ been indicted for war ░░░░░░░░ Putin and um I ░░░░░░░░ that it guarantees future ░░░░░░░░ right if we want ░░░░░░░░ we re going to ░░░░░░░░ to the negotiating table ░░░░░░░░ good faith not in ░░░░░░░░ sort of um right ░░░░░░░░ know it s not ░░░░░░░░ deal yeah and I ░░░░░░░░ the security concerns or ░░░░░░░░ were something that president ░░░░░░░░ was trying to lock ░░░░░░░░ there no doubt in ░░░░░░░░ in the meeting with ░░░░░░░░ Trump uh Greta thank ░░░░░░░░ so much Professor Greta ░░░░░░░░ uling she s professor ░░░░░░░░ international comparative studies at ░░░░░░░░ University of Michigan her ░░░░░░░░ decolonizing Ukraine this is Bloomberg