Jeffrey Goldberg: Trump Has a Better Sense Now How to Implement His ‘Authoritarian Impulses’

GEIST That was Four ░░░░░░░░ General John Kelly speaking ░░░░░░░░ tape to Michael Schmidt ░░░░░░░░ The New York Times ░░░░░░░░ also spoke to The ░░░░░░░░ s Editor in Chief ░░░░░░░░ Goldberg for a new ░░░░░░░░ of Donald Trump that ░░░░░░░░ what Goldberg calls the ░░░░░░░░ president s deepening preoccupation ░░░░░░░░ dictators and his disdain ░░░░░░░░ the American military The ░░░░░░░░ of the piece quotes ░░░░░░░░ as once having said ░░░░░░░░ need the kind of ░░░░░░░░ that Hitler had Trump ░░░░░░░░ people who were totally ░░░░░░░░ to him that follow ░░░░░░░░ Trump made the remark ░░░░░░░░ a private conversation in ░░░░░░░░ White House according to ░░░░░░░░ people who overheard the ░░░░░░░░ Goldberg asked retired General ░░░░░░░░ this week about Trump ░░░░░░░░ remarks concerning German generals ░░░░░░░░ told Goldberg when Trump ░░░░░░░░ the subject he responded ░░░░░░░░ asking Do you mean ░░░░░░░░ s generals Kelly went ░░░░░░░░ quote I mean I ░░░░░░░░ he didn t know ░░░░░░░░ Bismarck was or about ░░░░░░░░ Franco Prussian War I ░░░░░░░░ do you mean the ░░░░░░░░ s generals Surely you ░░░░░░░░ t mean Hitler s ░░░░░░░░ And he said Yeah ░░░░░░░░ Hitler s generals quoting ░░░░░░░░ there Kelly explained to ░░░░░░░░ that Rommel had to ░░░░░░░░ suicide after taking part ░░░░░░░░ a plot against Hitler ░░░░░░░░ said Trump was not ░░░░░░░░ with Rommel Let s ░░░░░░░░ in the Editor in ░░░░░░░░ of The Atlantic Jeffrey ░░░░░░░░ and Staff Writer at ░░░░░░░░ Atlantic Anne Applebaum Good ░░░░░░░░ to you both Jeffrey ░░░░░░░░ extraordinary stuff from General ░░░░░░░░ there combined with what ░░░░░░░░ told Mike Schmidt there ░░░░░░░░ tape for The New ░░░░░░░░ Times There s been ░░░░░░░░ from General Kelly of ░░░░░░░░ Trump not this direct ░░░░░░░░ perhaps not so direct ░░░░░░░░ his praise for Hitler ░░░░░░░░ wanting his generals to ░░░░░░░░ loyal to him the ░░░░░░░░ Hitler s generals where ░░░░░░░░ course not knowing the ░░░░░░░░ of the repeated plots ░░░░░░░░ Hitler by his own ░░░░░░░░ What stood out to ░░░░░░░░ in your conversation Goldberg ░░░░░░░░ it s just that ░░░░░░░░ s it s the ░░░░░░░░ s the comprehensive ignorance ░░░░░░░░ think of of history ░░░░░░░░ we don t expect ░░░░░░░░ to be historians They ░░░░░░░░ but they have to ░░░░░░░░ aware of what s ░░░░░░░░ before them and they ░░░░░░░░ to be aware of ░░░░░░░░ trends geopolitical trends and ░░░░░░░░ trends But I think ░░░░░░░░ Trump lived in a ░░░░░░░░ of vacuum of his ░░░░░░░░ making in which he ░░░░░░░░ would he would take ░░░░░░░░ snippets of information that ░░░░░░░░ s heard and turn ░░░░░░░░ into full narratives about ░░░░░░░░ way the world worked ░░░░░░░░ and what really struck ░░░░░░░░ the most and we ░░░░░░░░ been talking about this ░░░░░░░░ years now is the ░░░░░░░░ lack of a learning ░░░░░░░░ on the part of ░░░░░░░░ former president In other ░░░░░░░░ John Kelly Marine General ░░░░░░░░ of Staff says you ░░░░░░░░ Hitler s generals tried ░░░░░░░░ kill him multiple times ░░░░░░░░ he said and Donald ░░░░░░░░ said No they didn ░░░░░░░░ So it s it ░░░░░░░░ it s you can ░░░░░░░░ in a bubble of ░░░░░░░░ own creation Now that ░░░░░░░░ that s fine for ░░░░░░░░ lot of people but ░░░░░░░░ s not fine for ░░░░░░░░ president of the United ░░░░░░░░ Obviously the other piece ░░░░░░░░ this to me and ░░░░░░░░ I ve been reporting ░░░░░░░░ this for years is ░░░░░░░░ very strange disdain for ░░░░░░░░ particularly those who were ░░░░░░░░ going back to John ░░░░░░░░ and even George H ░░░░░░░░ Bush who he called ░░░░░░░░ loser for being shot ░░░░░░░░ by the Japanese in ░░░░░░░░ World War II The ░░░░░░░░ and the disdain as ░░░░░░░░ note before for people ░░░░░░░░ are wounded in in ░░░░░░░░ multiple examples in my ░░░░░░░░ of of that of ░░░░░░░░ desire to have big ░░░░░░░░ parades but without amputees ░░░░░░░░ as you reported they ░░░░░░░░ him look bad So ░░░░░░░░ mean there s a ░░░░░░░░ range of things here ░░░░░░░░ ve been talking about ░░░░░░░░ things for a while ░░░░░░░░ is more and more ░░░░░░░░ to suggest that he ░░░░░░░░ a very very dysfunctional ░░░░░░░░ with the ideas that ░░░░░░░░ U S Military service ░░░░░░░░ Jeff it s interesting ░░░░░░░░ John Kelly is speaking ░░░░░░░░ you speaking to Mike ░░░░░░░░ now you know so ░░░░░░░░ and close to the ░░░░░░░░ Did you get a ░░░░░░░░ from him in your ░░░░░░░░ about what he thinks ░░░░░░░░ second Trump term might ░░░░░░░░ like and what would ░░░░░░░░ different in terms of ░░░░░░░░ guardrails that we were ░░░░░░░░ about earlier in a ░░░░░░░░ term Goldberg Yeah that ░░░░░░░░ a very good question ░░░░░░░░ and we ve heard ░░░░░░░░ not only from John ░░░░░░░░ but essentially if you ░░░░░░░░ to anyone anyone of ░░░░░░░░ so called grown ups ░░░░░░░░ served in the first ░░░░░░░░ they understand that the ░░░░░░░░ guardrails are going to ░░░░░░░░ down You know our ░░░░░░░░ colleague at The Atlantic ░░░░░░░░ Frum said that the ░░░░░░░░ issue with the next ░░░░░░░░ term a theoretical next ░░░░░░░░ term is that the ░░░░░░░░ have learned how to ░░░░░░░░ the door handles which ░░░░░░░░ think is a very ░░░░░░░░ description of what could ░░░░░░░░ In other words last ░░░░░░░░ the let s say ░░░░░░░░ authoritarian impulses that a ░░░░░░░░ of people around Trump ░░░░░░░░ he has you know ░░░░░░░░ Kelly said this obviously ░░░░░░░░ Woodward Mark Milley Jim ░░░░░░░░ the former Secretary of ░░░░░░░░ they you know they ░░░░░░░░ that he has authoritarian ░░░░░░░░ but what we saw ░░░░░░░░ the first term was ░░░░░░░░ lack of ability or ░░░░░░░░ or hard work to ░░░░░░░░ those changes in the ░░░░░░░░ make those changes in ░░░░░░░░ that he wanted to ░░░░░░░░ now combine the fact ░░░░░░░░ they he won t ░░░░░░░░ people like Jim Mattis ░░░░░░░░ Tillerson H R McMaster ░░░░░░░░ Kelly he s promised ░░░░░░░░ to hire people like ░░░░░░░░ people with broad experience ░░░░░░░░ and probity and intellectual ░░░░░░░░ He s promised not ░░░░░░░░ hire them And they ░░░░░░░░ figured out where they ░░░░░░░░ wrong let s say ░░░░░░░░ the you know immigration ░░░░░░░░ for instance I think ░░░░░░░░ all of this group ░░░░░░░░ John Bolton the former ░░░░░░░░ Security Adviser no softy ░░░░░░░░ in a whole bunch ░░░░░░░░ issues believe that it ░░░░░░░░ be a much more ░░░░░░░░ administration because he has ░░░░░░░░ better sense or the ░░░░░░░░ around him have a ░░░░░░░░ sense of what he ░░░░░░░░ to do or what ░░░░░░░░ can achieve using the ░░░░░░░░ mechanisms.”