Jack Dorsey Says He Was Surprised by What He Saw in the Twitter Files

Joining us now is ░░░░░░░░ Jack Dorsey that s ░░░░░░░░ title he himself requested ░░░░░░░░ we really appreciate you ░░░░░░░░ us thank you appreciate ░░░░░░░░ both thank you for ░░░░░░░░ me yeah absolutely super ░░░░░░░░ Jack uh you ve ░░░░░░░░ outspoken recently uh why ░░░░░░░░ you think that RFK ░░░░░░░░ is the best choice ░░░░░░░░ the Democratic knee and ░░░░░░░░ best the Democratic nominee ░░░░░░░░ the best candidate in ░░░░░░░░ field right now um ░░░░░░░░ and foremost uh to ░░░░░░░░ a candidate to be ░░░░░░░░ of the United States ░░░░░░░░ is focused on peace ░░░░░░░░ ending all these wars ░░░░░░░░ really focusing on looking ░░░░░░░░ some of the deeper ░░░░░░░░ that we ve we ░░░░░░░░ had especially as he ░░░░░░░░ surround regulatory capture um ░░░░░░░░ industrial complex is intimate ░░░░░░░░ of all these things ░░░░░░░░ s you know worked ░░░░░░░░ hard in tiresome in ░░░░░░░░ fields and made a ░░░░░░░░ of progress I you ░░░░░░░░ I came across him ░░░░░░░░ this year and I ░░░░░░░░ listened and I kind ░░░░░░░░ went through all of ░░░░░░░░ podcasts uh almost every ░░░░░░░░ and I appreciate how ░░░░░░░░ of a grasp he ░░░░░░░░ of all the issues ░░░░░░░░ speaks to I appreciate ░░░░░░░░ he s curious and ░░░░░░░░ appreciate that he comes ░░░░░░░░ everything from a more ░░░░░░░░ a humanitarian angle there ░░░░░░░░ a deep deep sense ░░░░░░░░ humanity and actually helping ░░░░░░░░ and there s an ░░░░░░░░ as well there s ░░░░░░░░ s you know no ░░░░░░░░ fear in exploring topics ░░░░░░░░ are a little bit ░░░░░░░░ and maybe in the ░░░░░░░░ um so and all ░░░░░░░░ all just absolutely refreshing ░░░░░░░░ from what I ve ░░░░░░░░ from the whole field ░░░░░░░░ I m not really ░░░░░░░░ in uh I I ░░░░░░░░ t you know really ░░░░░░░░ out much on who ░░░░░░░░ m choosing or or ░░░░░░░░ um but I just ░░░░░░░░ like our country uh ░░░░░░░░ his leadership and do ░░░░░░░░ think it would be ░░░░░░░░ for the Democratic Party ░░░░░░░░ host primary debates so ░░░░░░░░ voters have a chance ░░░░░░░░ view all of these ░░░░░░░░ and their alternatives absolutely ░░░░░░░░ just it would be ░░░░░░░░ to not have opened ░░░░░░░░ page to not have ░░░░░░░░ primaries because it feels ░░░░░░░░ um hiding or everything ░░░░░░░░ is everything is planned ░░░░░░░░ and you know already ░░░░░░░░ and I don t ░░░░░░░░ that builds trust and ░░░░░░░░ now we need to ░░░░░░░░ as much trust as ░░░░░░░░ as possible open up ░░░░░░░░ be as transparent as ░░░░░░░░ um and really let ░░░░░░░░ people see and decide ░░░░░░░░ themselves You Know Jack ░░░░░░░░ know speaking of uh ░░░░░░░░ of transparency so far ░░░░░░░░ haven t had a ░░░░░░░░ to really hear from ░░░░░░░░ much in really the ░░░░░░░░ years and especially the ░░░░░░░░ several months what do ░░░░░░░░ make so far of ░░░░░░░░ Elon Musk s uh ░░░░░░░░ takeover of Twitter your ░░░░░░░░ company I think this ░░░░░░░░ actually the first interview ░░░░░░░░ ve done since I ░░░░░░░░ the company maybe maybe ░░░░░░░░ well as as I ░░░░░░░░ um Twitter is going ░░░░░░░░ have a very very ░░░░░░░░ time continuing to be ░░░░░░░░ public company it had ░░░░░░░░ pressures upon it um ░░░░░░░░ advertising business we were ░░░░░░░░ dependent on and not ░░░░░░░░ advertising um as you ░░░░░░░░ think of it from ░░░░░░░░ or Instagram or SnapChat ░░░░░░░░ was brand advertising it ░░░░░░░░ dependent upon huge brands ░░░░░░░░ a collection of conglomerates ░░░░░░░░ uh seeing us as ░░░░░░░░ that they wanted to ░░░░░░░░ money on um and ░░░░░░░░ we were so small ░░░░░░░░ to our peers if ░░░░░░░░ happened in the market ░░░░░░░░ with them they would ░░░░░░░░ pull away from us ░░░░░░░░ Snapchat was included in ░░░░░░░░ bucket as well and ░░░░░░░░ would Retreat to the ░░░░░░░░ ones like Facebook and ░░░░░░░░ um because we were ░░░░░░░░ public company without any ░░░░░░░░ we had no dual ░░░░░░░░ uh voting setup we ░░░░░░░░ open to activists coming ░░░░░░░░ in fact we had ░░░░░░░░ activist coming into our ░░░░░░░░ it s hugely distracting ░░░░░░░░ and really really challenging ░░░░░░░░ build anything at all ░░░░░░░░ and to actually build ░░░░░░░░ that you have to ░░░░░░░░ some risk upon um ░░░░░░░░ you have the pressure ░░░░░░░░ these advertisers and and ░░░░░░░░ this Revenue suddenly going ░░░░░░░░ if you if you ░░░░░░░░ a decision they don ░░░░░░░░ like right and at ░░░░░░░░ same time if that ░░░░░░░░ then you know that ░░░░░░░░ stock has an issue ░░░░░░░░ activist comes in and ░░░░░░░░ s a death spiral ░░░░░░░░ the only path to ░░░░░░░░ was to take the ░░░░░░░░ private and I you ░░░░░░░░ Elon is uh our ░░░░░░░░ one user he s ░░░░░░░░ number one customer um ░░░░░░░░ understood the platform deeply ░░░░░░░░ he s a technologist ░░░░░░░░ he builds technology so ░░░░░░░░ the very start I ░░░░░░░░ hoping for years that ░░░░░░░░ would um and I ░░░░░░░░ him many times to ░░░░░░░░ our board at least ░░░░░░░░ but when he decided ░░░░░░░░ make a bid for ░░░░░░░░ company or join the ░░░░░░░░ and then make up ░░░░░░░░ company uh I was ░░░░░░░░ it just it felt ░░░░░░░░ um but as you ░░░░░░░░ remember that s the ░░░░░░░░ when the market crashed ░░░░░░░░ for advertising companies like ░░░░░░░░ so if we not ░░░░░░░░ that um I think ░░░░░░░░ would have been very ░░░░░░░░ challenging for Twitter to ░░░░░░░░ live uh brilliant so ░░░░░░░░ what happened unfortunately after ░░░░░░░░ after the the bid ░░░░░░░░ the bid was made ░░░░░░░░ the and the market ░░░░░░░░ down is you know ░░░░░░░░ you wanted to back ░░░░░░░░ he did have a ░░░░░░░░ to back away uh ░░░░░░░░ a billion dollars and ░░░░░░░░ walk away um but ░░░░░░░░ was this fight about ░░░░░░░░ and you know the ░░░░░░░░ took them to court ░░░░░░░░ he when he backed ░░░░░░░░ and that s when ░░░░░░░░ really went South um ░░░░░░░░ you know he decided ░░░░░░░░ make it but I ░░░░░░░░ it set up a ░░░░░░░░ dynamic where he had ░░░░░░░░ be very Hasty he ░░░░░░░░ to be um impatient ░░░░░░░░ had to move as ░░░░░░░░ as possible with features ░░░░░░░░ if they weren t ░░░░░░░░ thought out and it ░░░░░░░░ looked fairly Reckless but ░░░░░░░░ I do have confidence ░░░░░░░░ he ll figure it ░░░░░░░░ um I do have ░░░░░░░░ uh in his new ░░░░░░░░ um and I own ░░░░░░░░ know three percent of ░░░░░░░░ of this new company ░░░░░░░░ I m I m ░░░░░░░░ I have questions about ░░░░░░░░ know certain things and ░░░░░░░░ have questions about the ░░░░░░░░ term aspects of free ░░░░░░░░ on a corporate owned ░░░░░░░░ no matter who the ░░░░░░░░ is yeah um but ░░░░░░░░ but those are solvable ░░░░░░░░ speak to that piece ░░░░░░░░ specifically with regard to ░░░░░░░░ do you think he ░░░░░░░░ lived up to his ░░░░░░░░ free speech commitments on ░░░░░░░░ platform and then what ░░░░░░░░ you see as the ░░░░░░░░ between a free speech ░░░░░░░░ and a for profit ░░░░░░░░ uh well I it ░░░░░░░░ on um where you ░░░░░░░░ the free speech because ░░░░░░░░ we were more you ░░░░░░░░ ideally going for a ░░░░░░░░ appreciation of free speech ░░░░░░░░ uh and and free ░░░░░░░░ itself and Elon um ░░░░░░░░ on a principle of ░░░░░░░░ that s um Allowed ░░░░░░░░ law on the platform ░░░░░░░░ sets up a dynamic ░░░░░░░░ you have countries like ░░░░░░░░ and Turkey uh who ░░░░░░░░ many requests to us ░░░░░░░░ in the day um ░░░░░░░░ take down particular journalist ░░░░░░░░ or give contact information ░░░░░░░░ and to remove them ░░░░░░░░ the platform so I ░░░░░░░░ it s easier to ░░░░░░░░ in the US but ░░░░░░░░ the same time you ░░░░░░░░ dependent right now upon ░░░░░░░░ advertising model and the ░░░░░░░░ can do things like ░░░░░░░░ uh until policies of ░░░░░░░░ or actions are taken ░░░░░░░░ we saw that many ░░░░░░░░ like well almost every ░░░░░░░░ I was at the ░░░░░░░░ we sell them um ░░░░░░░░ my my one goal ░░░░░░░░ I left the company ░░░░░░░░ to shift away from ░░░░░░░░ dependency on brand advertising ░░░░░░░░ move to different lines ░░░░░░░░ Revenue and Elon has ░░░░░░░░ with that and I ░░░░░░░░ that will help the ░░░░░░░░ of of being a ░░░░░░░░ for truly free speech ░░░░░░░░ that said she can ░░░░░░░░ be compelled he has ░░░░░░░░ person he s one ░░░░░░░░ point of failure and ░░░░░░░░ pressure can be put ░░░░░░░░ him by the United ░░░░░░░░ by the Department of ░░░░░░░░ by China by Turkey ░░░░░░░░ India of course uh ░░░░░░░░ it will and um ░░░░░░░░ is this is going ░░░░░░░░ be the the reality ░░░░░░░░ any uh centrally controlled ░░░░░░░░ uh company or or ░░░░░░░░ a protocol that s ░░░░░░░░ s centrally controlled so ░░░░░░░░ only way to truly ░░░░░░░░ free speech to truly ░░░░░░░░ censorship resistant is to ░░░░░░░░ on open protocols and ░░░░░░░░ are only two at ░░░░░░░░ that I m aware ░░░░░░░░ which is Bitcoin for ░░░░░░░░ and Noster for um ░░░░░░░░ social media and and ░░░░░░░░ but so Niche right ░░░░░░░░ and they re so ░░░░░░░░ and to me it ░░░░░░░░ it just says at ░░░░░░░░ moment that people don ░░░░░░░░ actually care as much ░░░░░░░░ the censorship resistance otherwise ░░░░░░░░ would be using these ░░░░░░░░ more and maybe there ░░░░░░░░ not much of a ░░░░░░░░ just yet or and ░░░░░░░░ the accessibility and the ░░░░░░░░ of these systems is ░░░░░░░░ Arcane for all people ░░░░░░░░ the world but that ░░░░░░░░ that will change so ░░░░░░░░ think we ll see ░░░░░░░░ important censorship resistance truly ░░░░░░░░ to people um you ░░░░░░░░ when some of these ░░░░░░░░ come up in the ░░░░░░░░ and it s no ░░░░░░░░ of Elon no fault ░░░░░░░░ anyone at the top ░░░░░░░░ one of these companies ░░░░░░░░ s just impossible to ░░░░░░░░ not having to take ░░░░░░░░ when there s a ░░░░░░░░ entity via the government ░░░░░░░░ your customers requesting that ░░░░░░░░ do something or they ░░░░░░░░ Jack one of the ░░░░░░░░ that a lot of ░░░░░░░░ focused on are the ░░░░░░░░ files do you think ░░░░░░░░ that accurately reflected decision ░░░░░░░░ so what that s ░░░░░░░░ taking place you know ░░░░░░░░ the company around so ░░░░░░░░ of these sensitive topics ░░░░░░░░ what s your reflection ░░░░░░░░ that you know since ░░░░░░░░ release uh I I ░░░░░░░░ that the the full ░░░░░░░░ of the emails and ░░░░░░░░ the information was released ░░░░░░░░ so that more journalists ░░░░░░░░ everyone in the world ░░░░░░░░ see everything because I ░░░░░░░░ there s some context ░░░░░░░░ when you when you ░░░░░░░░ parts and it s ░░░░░░░░ fault of the reporters ░░░░░░░░ they had a tool ░░░░░░░░ they had to ask ░░░░░░░░ of the tool and ░░░░░░░░ tool would give them ░░░░░░░░ fragments of information um ░░░░░░░░ that might lead them ░░░░░░░░ get the other fragment ░░░░░░░░ provide more context but ░░░░░░░░ if everything was available ░░░░░░░░ I think we d ░░░░░░░░ a better picture I ░░░░░░░░ think the company you ░░░░░░░░ my my leadership cell ░░░░░░░░ the company wish was ░░░░░░░░ trust our folks and ░░░░░░░░ that they were doing ░░░░░░░░ right things there s ░░░░░░░░ lot of stuff in ░░░░░░░░ Twitter files that you ░░░░░░░░ I never saw um ░░░░░░░░ it wasn t at ░░░░░░░░ level um and I ░░░░░░░░ surprised by the level ░░░░░░░░ Engagement with um government ░░░░░░░░ I was surprised by ░░░░░░░░ request but if you ░░░░░░░░ at that are people ░░░░░░░░ or our team members ░░░░░░░░ they push back on ░░░░░░░░ lot of that stuff ░░░░░░░░ not all of it ░░░░░░░░ a lot of it ░░░░░░░░ was questionable so I ░░░░░░░░ it shows a company ░░░░░░░░ is struggling you know ░░░░░░░░ it Remains the most ░░░░░░░░ um Public Square in ░░░░░░░░ world right now um ░░░░░░░░ it was so challenging ░░░░░░░░ work in that environment ░░░░░░░░ re on a we ░░░░░░░░ under a microscope from ░░░░░░░░ one of the company ░░░░░░░░ um it creates stresses ░░░░░░░░ uh are just unbelievable ░░░░░░░░ but I I think ░░░░░░░░ think they acted with ░░░░░░░░ I I think they ░░░░░░░░ did the right thing ░░░░░░░░ course we made a ░░░░░░░░ of mistakes especially around ░░░░░░░░ New York Post and ░░░░░░░░ Hunter Biden laptop story ░░░░░░░░ I I believe they ░░░░░░░░ good people and that ░░░░░░░░ were doing the best ░░░░░░░░ could with the information ░░░░░░░░ they had and I ░░░░░░░░ in retrospect I was ░░░░░░░░ little bit more Hands ░░░░░░░░ in that area my ░░░░░░░░ was on like when ░░░░░░░░ I came in the ░░░░░░░░ we were losing users ░░░░░░░░ now my focus was ░░░░░░░░ to grow the company ░░░░░░░░ grow the usage base ░░░░░░░░ the revenue and we ░░░░░░░░ we we actually became ░░░░░░░░ profitable company we got ░░░░░░░░ the S P 500 ░░░░░░░░ we had you know ░░░░░░░░ billion dollars a year ░░░░░░░░ advertising revenue and we ░░░░░░░░ shifting away from advertising ░░░░░░░░ the same time and ░░░░░░░░ so I I didn ░░░░░░░░ focus on that area ░░░░░░░░ much as probably should ░░░░░░░░ in retrospect and asked ░░░░░░░░ questions it was all ░░░░░░░░ when I did but ░░░░░░░░ yeah it s a ░░░░░░░░ s a tough situation ░░░░░░░░ I think I think ░░░░░░░░ company did well but ░░░░░░░░ uh we could have ░░░░░░░░ better and I do ░░░░░░░░ that we we were ░░░░░░░░ fair and more introspective ░░░░░░░░ our peers in terms ░░░░░░░░ context you said you ░░░░░░░░ that some of the ░░░░░░░░ was missing do you ░░░░░░░░ specifics there of things ░░░░░░░░ you wish were included ░░░░░░░░ that you felt painted ░░░░░░░░ misleading portrait ah nothing ░░░░░░░░ particular that comes to ░░░░░░░░ I mean like it ░░░░░░░░ it s hard to ░░░░░░░░ there s just so ░░░░░░░░ uh context in those ░░░░░░░░ those emails and the ░░░░░░░░ and even within that ░░░░░░░░ would have in person ░░░░░░░░ that would discuss things ░░░░░░░░ may not be represented ░░░░░░░░ the written communication so ░░░░░░░░ s nothing that like ░░░░░░░░ out but I believe ░░░░░░░░ if you truly want ░░░░░░░░ show how one of ░░░░░░░░ systems work which I ░░░░░░░░ m fully supportive of ░░░░░░░░ all this stuff up ░░░░░░░░ re trying to like ░░░░░░░░ out how to do ░░░░░░░░ ourselves before I left ░░░░░░░░ and and one of ░░░░░░░░ goals was to be ░░░░░░░░ most transparent company in ░░░░░░░░ world but to only ░░░░░░░░ access to a few ░░░░░░░░ with a tool that ░░░░░░░░ know takes these fragments ░░░░░░░░ I think that there ░░░░░░░░ have been a better ░░░░░░░░ and and that would ░░░░░░░░ be open open up ░░░░░░░░ whole thing Jack one ░░░░░░░░ thing you re in ░░░░░░░░ unique position you believe ░░░░░░░░ free speech that s ░░░░░░░░ I ve never doubted ░░░░░░░░ about you how you ░░░░░░░░ are in the unique ░░░░░░░░ of having run one ░░░░░░░░ these companies can you ░░░░░░░░ us some like anecdotes ░░░░░░░░ you alluded to foreign ░░░░░░░░ and the pressures that ░░░░░░░░ were under if able ░░░░░░░░ to give the audience ░░░░░░░░ idea of what it ░░░░░░░░ really like to be ░░░░░░░░ a position to have ░░░░░░░░ of the most powerful ░░░░░░░░ literally on Earth coming ░░░░░░░░ you and saying demanding ░░░░░░░░ of your company and ░░░░░░░░ someone with principles how ░░░░░░░░ you navigate that uh ░░░░░░░░ for example India is ░░░░░░░░ is a country that ░░░░░░░░ had many requests of ░░░░░░░░ around the farmer s ░░░░░░░░ around particular journalists that ░░░░░░░░ critical of the government ░░░░░░░░ and uh it manifested ░░░░░░░░ ways such as we ░░░░░░░░ shut put her down ░░░░░░░░ India which is a ░░░░░░░░ large market for us ░░░░░░░░ will raid the homes ░░░░░░░░ your employees which they ░░░░░░░░ um we will shut ░░░░░░░░ your offices um if ░░░░░░░░ don t follow suit ░░░░░░░░ this is Indian a ░░░░░░░░ country um Turkey is ░░░░░░░░ very similar like we ░░░░░░░░ had so many uh ░░░░░░░░ from Turkey we fought ░░░░░░░░ uh in their in ░░░░░░░░ courts and often won ░░░░░░░░ they threatened to shut ░░░░░░░░ down constantly um Nigeria ░░░░░░░░ another one um I ░░░░░░░░ t think we could ░░░░░░░░ put people on the ░░░░░░░░ because of what the ░░░░░░░░ might do to our ░░░░░░░░ if we add them ░░░░░░░░ and then of course ░░░░░░░░ the the US um ░░░░░░░░ we started a long ░░░░░░░░ ago a transparency report ░░░░░░░░ all government requests into ░░░░░░░░ and we re continuing ░░░░░░░░ make it more fine ░░░░░░░░ um in these requests ░░░░░░░░ uh takedowns or investigations ░░░░░░░░ uh any any number ░░░░░░░░ things that a government ░░░░░░░░ request of us especially ░░░░░░░░ US government and um ░░░░░░░░ would I would I ░░░░░░░░ t as deep uh ░░░░░░░░ in those conversations but ░░░░░░░░ would say that um ░░░░░░░░ it was just it ░░░░░░░░ it was super it ░░░░░░░░ super challenging because you ░░░░░░░░ the US government asking ░░░░░░░░ things and then when ░░░░░░░░ you to do things ░░░░░░░░ then also calling you ░░░░░░░░ Congress I was like ░░░░░░░░ was I testified before ░░░░░░░░ four times um for ░░░░░░░░ know five to seven ░░░░░░░░ each time with the ░░░░░░░░ um non productive discussion ░░░░░░░░ know these frame questions ░░░░░░░░ yes or no uh ░░░░░░░░ with you know with ░░░░░░░░ ability to provide no ░░░░░░░░ whatsoever so that the ░░░░░░░░ people and the Senators ░░░░░░░░ actually understand and again ░░░░░░░░ context for the problems ░░░░░░░░ re trying to solve ░░░░░░░░ and use it as ░░░░░░░░ form for ideas to ░░░░░░░░ know um to do ░░░░░░░░ for together for the ░░░░░░░░ of the United States ░░░░░░░░ for the people of ░░░░░░░░ other countries but it ░░░░░░░░ felt like um attacks ░░░░░░░░ the time uh from ░░░░░░░░ angle everything we did ░░░░░░░░ upset the right and ░░░░░░░░ we did really upset ░░░░░░░░ left like you could ░░░░░░░░ there s no way ░░░░░░░░ to win and you ░░░░░░░░ kind of have to ░░░░░░░░ that and move forward ░░░░░░░░ referred earlier to the ░░░░░░░░ that there hasn t ░░░░░░░░ a large adoption of ░░░░░░░░ of the Twitter Alternatives ░░░░░░░░ you said that calls ░░░░░░░░ question how much people ░░░░░░░░ care about these questions ░░░░░░░░ censorship I view it ░░░░░░░░ little bit differently which ░░░░░░░░ that it seems to ░░░░░░░░ that these platforms are ░░░░░░░░ of like the definition ░░░░░░░░ a natural monopoly right ░░░░░░░░ reason people are staying ░░░░░░░░ Twitter is because people ░░░░░░░░ on Twitter right there ░░░░░░░░ already this critical mass ░░░░░░░░ individuals there so given ░░░░░░░░ fact that first of ░░░░░░░░ I would be curious ░░░░░░░░ you agree with that ░░░░░░░░ that they re sort ░░░░░░░░ natural monopolies because the ░░░░░░░░ comes in having the ░░░░░░░░ social network should they ░░░░░░░░ regulated then more like ░░░░░░░░ utilities which is the ░░░░░░░░ sort of famous example ░░░░░░░░ a natural monopoly uh ░░░░░░░░ I think natural monopolies ░░░░░░░░ for a time but ░░░░░░░░ are easily disrupted I ░░░░░░░░ don t think it ░░░░░░░░ as challenging as as ░░░░░░░░ would think I mean ░░░░░░░░ has only been around ░░░░░░░░ uh 17 years um ░░░░░░░░ which seems like a ░░░░░░░░ time but there was ░░░░░░░░ you know in Myspace ░░░░░░░░ that in a Friendster ░░░░░░░░ that and I used ░░░░░░░░ before that which was ░░░░░░░░ decentralized and unowned by ░░░░░░░░ anyone um I I ░░░░░░░░ t I don t ░░░░░░░░ more government regulation is ░░░░░░░░ the right answer um ░░░░░░░░ ward off uh the ░░░░░░░░ aspects or fix some ░░░░░░░░ the issues I think ░░░░░░░░ a having an open ░░░░░░░░ that no one actually ░░░░░░░░ um and governments and ░░░░░░░░ can t bend to ░░░░░░░░ will is the most ░░░░░░░░ thing uh that allows ░░░░░░░░ um the most Creative ░░░░░░░░ to all the problems ░░░░░░░░ see including protecting freedom ░░░░░░░░ state speech and including ░░░░░░░░ safety for folks who ░░░░░░░░ want it um and ░░░░░░░░ hope is that you ░░░░░░░░ as we build these ░░░░░░░░ like like Nostra and ░░░░░░░░ that a company like ░░░░░░░░ adopts them because it ░░░░░░░░ a bunch of the ░░░░░░░░ they would have otherwise ░░░░░░░░ they can build some ░░░░░░░░ businesses on top of ░░░░░░░░ and to prove that ░░░░░░░░ see what Google has ░░░░░░░░ with the web they ░░░░░░░░ an open protocol built ░░░░░░░░ phenomenal business they built ░░░░░░░░ phenomenal business on gmail ░░░░░░░░ is an open protocol ░░░░░░░░ email there are real ░░░░░░░░ building on open protocols ░░░░░░░░ the we re at ░░░░░░░░ same town the foundational ░░░░░░░░ of it the foundational ░░░░░░░░ that people own and ░░░░░░░░ company can t bend ░░░░░░░░ its will one way ░░░░░░░░ the other Jack what ░░░░░░░░ you think about AI ░░░░░░░░ you re a technologist ░░░░░░░░ you think we should ░░░░░░░░ regulation do you agree ░░░░░░░░ uh Elon and others ░░░░░░░░ want to shut it ░░░░░░░░ in the meantime to ░░░░░░░░ it it gets to ░░░░░░░░ of the protocol discussion ░░░░░░░░ re talking about right ░░░░░░░░ I don t uh ░░░░░░░░ pausing AI is uh ░░░░░░░░ we may pause it ░░░░░░░░ in the US but ░░░░░░░░ there s no composer ░░░░░░░░ China and I I ░░░░░░░░ there is a bit ░░░░░░░░ an arms race in ░░░░░░░░ space um I I ░░░░░░░░ regulation is needed I ░░░░░░░░ t think the um ░░░░░░░░ Regulators currently have an ░░░░░░░░ of the approach I ░░░░░░░░ hoping that they look ░░░░░░░░ at The Primitives of ░░░░░░░░ Technologies and and not ░░░░░░░░ on driving particular outcomes ░░░░░░░░ the Technologies um and ░░░░░░░░ I think the real ░░░░░░░░ most important thing to ░░░░░░░░ is that we have ░░░░░░░░ source models and I ░░░░░░░░ you know I ve ░░░░░░░░ Facebook and Mark Zuckerberg ░░░░░░░░ uh most of my ░░░░░░░░ career and he s ░░░░░░░░ does but I really ░░░░░░░░ the fact that he ░░░░░░░░ to open source um ░░░░░░░░ large language model and ░░░░░░░░ it created this entire ░░░░░░░░ open source ecosystem building ░░░░░░░░ that are now approaching ░░░░░░░░ level of attached GPT ░░░░░░░░ what Google is doing ░░░░░░░░ Bart I think that ░░░░░░░░ absolutely critical that we ░░░░░░░░ have access to these ░░░░░░░░ and people can build ░░░░░░░░ top of it and ░░░░░░░░ can actually see how ░░░░░░░░ work so I think ░░░░░░░░ s far more important ░░░░░░░░ regulation um there s ░░░░░░░░ dangers there that people ░░░░░░░░ know might take these ░░░░░░░░ and build extremely harmful ░░░░░░░░ um but that that ░░░░░░░░ been the case forever ░░░░░░░░ open source and and ░░░░░░░░ just haven t seen ░░░░░░░░ play out because there ░░░░░░░░ a balancing effect um ░░░░░░░░ of people doing the ░░░░░░░░ thing and and looking ░░░░░░░░ ways to protect the ░░░░░░░░ technology and ultimately protect ░░░░░░░░ so I I I ░░░░░░░░ that um the open ░░░░░░░░ aspect has has me ░░░░░░░░ most excited about this ░░░░░░░░ have a lot of ░░░░░░░░ technologists who have been ░░░░░░░░ the alarm about the ░░░░░░░░ dire impact of AI ░░░░░░░░ on society do you ░░░░░░░░ any of those concerns ░░░░░░░░ course I share them ░░░░░░░░ think there s a ░░░░░░░░ of hype in the ░░░░░░░░ right now our the ░░░░░░░░ industry is very trendy ░░░░░░░░ we move from one ░░░░░░░░ to the next fashion ░░░░░░░░ just six months ago ░░░░░░░░ know nine months ago ░░░░░░░░ re only talking about ░░░░░░░░ and board Apes and ░░░░░░░░ re talking about AI ░░░░░░░░ how it s going ░░░░░░░░ destroy us like if ░░░░░░░░ listen to the earnings ░░░░░░░░ uh of all these ░░░░░░░░ uh six months ago ░░░░░░░░ was no mention of ░░░░░░░░ and now every single ░░░░░░░░ call of all almost ░░░░░░░░ public companies includes a ░░░░░░░░ of AI and some ░░░░░░░░ that I think is ░░░░░░░░ know to pump the ░░░░░░░░ a bit some of ░░░░░░░░ all the dire stuff ░░░░░░░░ it makes for a ░░░░░░░░ headline which sells advertising ░░░░░░░░ and and helps the ░░░░░░░░ immensely I I don ░░░░░░░░ think we re anywhere ░░░░░░░░ um the danger Point ░░░░░░░░ but certainly like it ░░░░░░░░ important for us to ░░░░░░░░ the you know the ░░░░░░░░ harmful outcomes uh and ░░░░░░░░ conversations about them but ░░░░░░░░ think the only way ░░░░░░░░ do that is to ░░░░░░░░ build it in the ░░░░░░░░ itself right um and ░░░░░░░░ that s why I ░░░░░░░░ open source is is ░░░░░░░░ critical Jack what do ░░░░░░░░ make of uh Meta ░░░░░░░░ you know foray into ░░░░░░░░ headsets we just had ░░░░░░░░ release of the Apple ░░░░░░░░ this type of technological ░░░░░░░░ uh what do you ░░░░░░░░ about AR VR and ░░░░░░░░ current Push by these ░░░░░░░░ into it I mean ░░░░░░░░ s obvious that it ░░░░░░░░ going to happen like ░░░░░░░░ you if you want ░░░░░░░░ understand the future of ░░░░░░░░ technology just read science ░░░░░░░░ they re actually the ░░░░░░░░ writers and it s ░░░░░░░░ that um like snow ░░░░░░░░ uh this book from ░░░░░░░░ Stevenson is going to ░░░░░░░░ there one like now ░░░░░░░░ we ve seen it ░░░░░░░░ a movie like people ░░░░░░░░ to build it and ░░░░░░░░ I think they they ░░░░░░░░ uh you know propensity ░░░░░░░░ be phenomenal for for ░░░░░░░░ um I think it ░░░░░░░░ an obvious uh user ░░░░░░░░ Evolution I m super ░░░░░░░░ and concerned with uh ░░░░░░░░ how out of touch ░░░░░░░░ might make people and ░░░░░░░░ it distances us even ░░░░░░░░ I think another movie ░░░░░░░░ Wally by Pixar that ░░░░░░░░ the future we re ░░░░░░░░ towards um with everyone ░░░░░░░░ the floating chairs you ░░░░░░░░ drinking their food out ░░░░░░░░ straws and and uh ░░░░░░░░ know constant 24 7 ░░░░░░░░ and you can see ░░░░░░░░ like the whole world ░░░░░░░░ headed this way and ░░░░░░░░ I want to believe ░░░░░░░░ there s a different ░░░░░░░░ um so I don ░░░░░░░░ know I m it ░░░░░░░░ it s going to ░░░░░░░░ I m I m ░░░░░░░░ about um some of ░░░░░░░░ the benefits and I ░░░░░░░░ hope we have an ░░░░░░░░ conversation about some of ░░░░░░░░ harms uh around more ░░░░░░░░ more social distancing I ░░░░░░░░ there s been a ░░░░░░░░ increase both in research ░░░░░░░░ harms of too much ░░░░░░░░ especially on young children ░░░░░░░░ teenagers I think there ░░░░░░░░ been huge interest from ░░░░░░░░ public in how do ░░░░░░░░ make sure that we ░░░░░░░░ have you know Health ░░░░░░░░ we re touching grass ░░░░░░░░ to speak um and ░░░░░░░░ wonder Jack how you ░░░░░░░░ about those things you ░░░░░░░░ advice to parents advice ░░░░░░░░ people individually how to ░░░░░░░░ of stay sane stay ░░░░░░░░ stay you know living ░░░░░░░░ fulsome and satisfying and ░░░░░░░░ life as more and ░░░░░░░░ technology invades the most ░░░░░░░░ of our personal interactions ░░░░░░░░ do think um it ░░░░░░░░ important to find some ░░░░░░░░ of balance it like ░░░░░░░░ think with all Technologies ░░░░░░░░ they first come out ░░░░░░░░ tend to overuse them ░░░░░░░░ abuse them and then ░░░░░░░░ realize that we re ░░░░░░░░ that and we look ░░░░░░░░ you know opportunities to ░░░░░░░░ away from them I ░░░░░░░░ think the phone is ░░░░░░░░ real addiction I do ░░░░░░░░ um this generation of ░░░░░░░░ kids I don t ░░░░░░░░ kids myself but just ░░░░░░░░ with my friends who ░░░░░░░░ parents a lot of ░░░░░░░░ have made the choice ░░░░░░░░ not allow any media ░░░░░░░░ or or devices some ░░░░░░░░ made decisions to allow ░░░░░░░░ because they re growing ░░░░░░░░ in this world and ░░░░░░░░ need to understand how ░░░░░░░░ to work with it ░░░░░░░░ others have found some ░░░░░░░░ of hybrid um I ░░░░░░░░ if you if if ░░░░░░░░ see it in in ░░░░░░░░ as a way as ░░░░░░░░ tool to help us ░░░░░░░░ questions about the world ░░░░░░░░ build things to make ░░░░░░░░ and not just pure ░░░░░░░░ I think it can ░░░░░░░░ quite healthy as long ░░░░░░░░ you are finding balance ░░░░░░░░ and I I am ░░░░░░░░ worried that there s ░░░░░░░░ a lot of emphasis ░░░░░░░░ finding that balance um ░░░░░░░░ at the moment right ░░░░░░░░ we ve been so ░░░░░░░░ you go to any ░░░░░░░░ these days and you ░░░░░░░░ you see couples all ░░░░░░░░ time both of them ░░░░░░░░ on their phones and ░░░░░░░░ candle is in the ░░░░░░░░ of them and it ░░░░░░░░ just we we ve ░░░░░░░░ lost a lot of ░░░░░░░░ opportunity for for real ░░░░░░░░ and I I do ░░░░░░░░ we should build Technologies ░░░░░░░░ to suggest that people ░░░░░░░░ look up look up ░░░░░░░░ s an inspiring message ░░░░░░░░ Jack I know that ░░░░░░░░ re a busy man ░░░░░░░░ just want to say ░░░░░░░░ appreciate you joining us ░░░░░░░░ much it was a ░░░░░░░░ pleasure talking to you ░░░░░░░░ I think a lot ░░░░░░░░ people working get something ░░░░░░░░ of this thank you ░░░░░░░░ great to talk to ░░░░░░░░ thank you yeah it ░░░░░░░░ our pleasure hey guys ░░░░░░░░ or not 2024 is ░░░░░░░░ upon us now and ░░░░░░░░ and I have been ░░░░░░░░ ways that we can ░░░░░░░░ up our game for ░░░░░░░░ critical election yeah we ░░░░░░░░ on our premium Subs ░░░░░░░░ expand our coverage to ░░░░░░░░ staff to upgrade the ░░░░░░░░ we just want to ░░░░░░░░ you the best independent ░░░░░░░░ of this election which ░░░░░░░░ possible so if you ░░░░░░░░ help us out become ░░░░░░░░ premium subscriber today breaking ░░░░░░░░ com or the Link ░░░░░░░░ down here in the ░░░░░░░░ video it really means ░░░░░░░░ world to us and ░░░░░░░░ you like what we ░░░░░░░░ all about this is ░░░░░░░░ best possible way to ░░░░░░░░ us 100 independent working ░░░░░░░░ for you