RUSH TRANSCRIPT Welcome back ░░░░░░░░ Morning Joe It is ░░░░░░░░ past the hour A ░░░░░░░░ look at the White ░░░░░░░░ Joining us now acclaimed ░░░░░░░░ historian julian zelezor He ░░░░░░░░ the editor of the ░░░░░░░░ book the presidency of ░░░░░░░░ j Trump a first ░░░░░░░░ assessment Explain the premise ░░░░░░░░ the book sir I ░░░░░░░░ a lot of authors ░░░░░░░░ think they ve done ░░░░░░░░ historical assessment of Donald ░░░░░░░░ s presidency Well I ░░░░░░░░ together historians to take ░░░░░░░░ first draft in many ░░░░░░░░ at the history Rather ░░░░░░░░ rating a president are ░░░░░░░░ a 10 or a ░░░░░░░░ I try to put ░░░░░░░░ into long term perspective ░░░░░░░░ do we understand the ░░░░░░░░ president with relation to ░░░░░░░░ impeachment all of the ░░░░░░░░ issues that shape the ░░░░░░░░ I have been doing ░░░░░░░░ now this is my ░░░░░░░░ president Okay So how ░░░░░░░░ we understand the former ░░░░░░░░ as it pertains to ░░░░░░░░ rule of law and ░░░░░░░░ Constitution and undermining a ░░░░░░░░ election Well a lot ░░░░░░░░ the authors in the ░░░░░░░░ really look at how ░░░░░░░░ strained many key elements ░░░░░░░░ the democratic process So ░░░░░░░░ have a chapter on ░░░░░░░░ that raises the question ░░░░░░░░ this presidency is over ░░░░░░░░ impeachment really work is ░░░░░░░░ a mechanism that is ░░░░░░░░ to withstand the partisanship ░░░░░░░░ our political system There ░░░░░░░░ many examples of that ░░░░░░░░ this presidency tested key ░░░░░░░░ of how our system ░░░░░░░░ operating in this period ░░░░░░░░ right So julian you ░░░░░░░░ about an interview you ░░░░░░░░ with former President Trump ░░░░░░░░ an article in the ░░░░░░░░ called what I learned ░░░░░░░░ Trump tried to correct ░░░░░░░░ record You recount an ░░░░░░░░ moment where he explains ░░░░░░░░ version of the Capitol ░░░░░░░░ When the Yale historian ░░░░░░░░ gaige brought up the ░░░░░░░░ s relationship with the ░░░░░░░░ and the intelligence community ░░░░░░░░ subject of her chapter ░░░░░░░░ our book he eventually ░░░░░░░░ to the Capitol riot ░░░░░░░░ January 6th 2021 According ░░░░░░░░ his memory the expert ░░░░░░░░ was off The real ░░░░░░░░ Trump argued has yet ░░░░░░░░ be written When Congress ░░░░░░░░ to certify the Electoral ░░░░░░░░ results Trump told us ░░░░░░░░ had been a peaceful ░░░░░░░░ more than a million ░░░░░░░░ who were full of ░░░░░░░░ love and believed the ░░░░░░░░ was rigged and robbed ░░░░░░░░ stolen He made a ░░░░░░░░ modest and very peaceful ░░░░░░░░ a presidential speech The ░░░░░░░░ at the Capitol was ░░░░░░░░ massive and tremendous group ░░░░░░░░ people The day was ░░░░░░░░ marred by a small ░░░░░░░░ of left wing antifa ░░░░░░░░ Black Lives Matter activists ░░░░░░░░ infiltrated them and who ░░░░░░░░ not stopped because of ░░░░░░░░ decisions by the U ░░░░░░░░ capitol police when some ░░░░░░░░ things happened These are ░░░░░░░░ that he uses a ░░░░░░░░ julian He often does ░░░░░░░░ tries to completely change ░░░░░░░░ narrative I believe the ░░░░░░░░ 6th select committee is ░░░░░░░░ to be coming out ░░░░░░░░ a point by point ░░░░░░░░ of what went down ░░░░░░░░ what do you make ░░░░░░░░ his complete contortion of ░░░░░░░░ facts Well look he ░░░░░░░░ us This was in ░░░░░░░░ 2021 He had read ░░░░░░░░ article about the book ░░░░░░░░ he asked if he ░░░░░░░░ meet with us through ░░░░░░░░ staff and so we ░░░░░░░░ via zoom This was ░░░░░░░░ part of the conversation ░░░░░░░░ we re listening to ░░░░░░░░ he perceived January 6th ░░░░░░░░ if you hear his ░░░░░░░░ it sounds like antifa ░░░░░░░░ Black Lives Matter activists ░░░░░░░░ responsible for this and ░░░░░░░░ Pelosi was the person ░░░░░░░░ really failed the country ░░░░░░░░ is what he does ░░░░░░░░ spins his version of ░░░░░░░░ He does it with ░░░░░░░░ and in his mind ░░░░░░░░ clarity but they re ░░░░░░░░ odds with what we ░░░░░░░░ saw in front of ░░░░░░░░ eyes That s what ░░░░░░░░ work of the committee ░░░░░░░░ at this point so ░░░░░░░░ people really understand how ░░░░░░░░ horrible hours unfolded So ░░░░░░░░ this is not the ░░░░░░░░ dance you have taken ░░░░░░░░ former presidents in writing ░░░░░░░░ sort of a review ░░░░░░░░ their presidencies and president ░░░░░░░░ obviously have enormous egos ░░░░░░░░ else they wouldn t ░░░░░░░░ president I m wondering ░░░░░░░░ your conversation with President ░░░░░░░░ even though it is ░░░░░░░░ zoom and he s ░░░░░░░░ there in person what ░░░░░░░░ your judgment on his ░░░░░░░░ of reality Well it ░░░░░░░░ hard to look into ░░░░░░░░ mind of a former ░░░░░░░░ of former President Trump ░░░░░░░░ I do know and ░░░░░░░░ everyone in the zoom ░░░░░░░░ could see was the ░░░░░░░░ he interpreted and spun ░░░░░░░░ history was at odds ░░░░░░░░ what most people understood ░░░░░░░░ be true This ranged ░░░░░░░░ his account of January ░░░░░░░░ which was totally at ░░░░░░░░ with what we all ░░░░░░░░ on television to his ░░░░░░░░ us that he was ░░░░░░░░ tough on Russia and ░░░░░░░░ listening to those remarks ░░░░░░░░ in the context of ░░░░░░░░ we are today is ░░░░░░░░ a president who is ░░░░░░░░ to say what he ░░░░░░░░ to say and doesn ░░░░░░░░ feel there are guardrails ░░░░░░░░ his narrative of events ░░░░░░░░ you kind of excavate ░░░░░░░░ little bit a point ░░░░░░░░ most certainly is true ░░░░░░░░ has been discussed at ░░░░░░░░ length which is that ░░░░░░░░ know he didn t ░░░░░░░░ Donald Trump the divisions ░░░░░░░░ we see in our ░░░░░░░░ right now He exacerbated ░░░░░░░░ brought them to the ░░░░░░░░ He made it okay ░░░░░░░░ say things that had ░░░░░░░░ dormant cruelness bigotry sort ░░░░░░░░ under the veil of ░░░░░░░░ political correctness How did ░░░░░░░░ play out over the ░░░░░░░░ of his administration just ░░░░░░░░ out into the open ░░░░░░░░ that apparently a lot ░░░░░░░░ people in the country ░░░░░░░░ feeling and thinking and ░░░░░░░░ to say out loud ░░░░░░░░ he came along Look ░░░░░░░░ is fundamentally the book ░░░░░░░░ the former president wasn ░░░░░░░░ the product of what ░░░░░░░░ saw He was also ░░░░░░░░ calls of changes in ░░░░░░░░ and he was willing ░░░░░░░░ play to those elements ░░░░░░░░ the electorate at many ░░░░░░░░ points of his presidency ░░░░░░░░ ways which we have ░░░░░░░░ other politicians do but ░░░░░░░░ try to do it ░░░░░░░░ subtly they try to ░░░░░░░░ it through code words ░░░░░░░░ was more comfortable playing ░░░░░░░░ the extremists very openly ░░░░░░░░ part of what we ░░░░░░░░ is how the Republican ░░░░░░░░ has changed since the ░░░░░░░░ and reached a point ░░░░░░░░ have seen from the ░░░░░░░░ party right through the ░░░░░░░░ presidency where this has ░░░░░░░░ become a legitimate form ░░░░░░░░ political discourse and this ░░░░░░░░ now part of the ░░░░░░░░ coalition Hey julian So ░░░░░░░░ are writing the historical ░░░░░░░░ of Donald Trump and ░░░░░░░░ may not be over ░░░░░░░░ We know if he ░░░░░░░░ he would be the ░░░░░░░░ favorite to be their ░░░░░░░░ in 2024 I won ░░░░░░░░ ask you to rank ░░░░░░░░ which historians are asked ░░░░░░░░ the time in terms ░░░░░░░░ presidents but give us ░░░░░░░░ sense you place him ░░░░░░░░ history but also if ░░░░░░░░ gave any clues as ░░░░░░░░ what his next act ░░░░░░░░ be when you spoke ░░░░░░░░ him Again this was ░░░░░░░░ 2021 It didn t ░░░░░░░░ like someone who was ░░░░░░░░ with politics and here ░░░░░░░░ that conversation was someone ░░░░░░░░ much eager to end ░░░░░░░░ story on his own ░░░░░░░░ meaning that s what ░░░░░░░░ was doing with us ░░░░░░░░ wasn t letting us ░░░░░░░░ the book and come ░░░░░░░░ with what we found ░░░░░░░░ rather almost wanted to ░░░░░░░░ to us how to ░░░░░░░░ him For me that ░░░░░░░░ a politician who is ░░░░░░░░ done Look I came ░░░░░░░░ from that list rally ░░░░░░░░ turned the computer and ░░░░░░░░ he s going to ░░░░░░░░ again I don t ░░░░░░░░ if that s true ░░░░░░░░ is just my assessment ░░░░░░░░ what I heard and ░░░░░░░░ was a disruptive president ░░░░░░░░ brought all of the ░░░░░░░░ disruptive elements of our ░░░░░░░░ from the way the ░░░░░░░░ works to some of ░░░░░░░░ political elements we have ░░░░░░░░ and brought them to ░░░░░░░░ surface We are reckoning ░░░░░░░░ just with the former ░░░░░░░░ but with the state ░░░░░░░░ our democracy and that ░░░░░░░░ what we really need ░░░░░░░░ understand Absolutely To conclude ░░░░░░░░ is what you write ░░░░░░░░ the Atlantic about your ░░░░░░░░ from your meeting with ░░░░░░░░ President Trump Quote during ░░░░░░░░ hour together Trump didn ░░░░░░░░ have many questions for ░░░░░░░░ Even in his attempt ░░░░░░░░ correct the record Trump ░░░░░░░░ didn t acknowledge or ░░░░░░░░ with informed outside criticisms ░░░░░░░░ his presidency He did ░░░░░░░░ admit to having sometimes ░░░░░░░░ people he shouldn t ░░░░░░░░ and at one point ░░░░░░░░ said when I didn ░░░░░░░░ win the election phrasing ░░░░░░░░ odds with his false ░░░░░░░░ that the 2020 vote ░░░░░░░░ stolen But his goal ░░░░░░░░ to sell a group ░░░░░░░░ historians on his side ░░░░░░░░ the story I m ░░░░░░░░ at the list it ░░░░░░░░ a tremendous group of ░░░░░░░░ and I think rather ░░░░░░░░ being critical I d ░░░░░░░░ to have you hear ░░░░░░░░ out which is what ░░░░░░░░ re doing right now ░░░░░░░░ I appreciate it You ░░░░░░░░ on to say he ░░░░░░░░ to want the approval ░░░░░░░░ historians without any understanding ░░░░░░░░ how historians gather evidence ░░░░░░░░ render judgments The new ░░░░░░░░ is the the presiden ░░░░░░░░ Donald j Trump a ░░░░░░░░ historical assessment Julian thank ░░░░░░░░ for sharing it with ░░░░░░░░ this morning We appreciate ░░░░░░░░ Up next we return ░░░░░░░░ our coverage of the ░░░░░░░░ in eastern Europe NBC ░░░░░░░░ Molly Hunter joins us ░░░░░░░░ from Kyiv with her ░░░░░░░░ reporting on the suspected ░░░░░░░░ committed by Russian forces in