RUSH TRANSCRIPT In that ░░░░░░░░ report we just showed ░░░░░░░░ from back in the ░░░░░░░░ it was a pre ░░░░░░░░ pardon he secured in ░░░░░░░░ politically hot case a ░░░░░░░░ case of a president ░░░░░░░░ someone before any conviction ░░░░░░░░ tonight I can tell ░░░░░░░░ that lawyer is off ░░░░░░░░ s team and his ░░░░░░░░ about potential pardons that ░░░░░░░░ what s leaking tonight ░░░░░░░░ m joined by former ░░░░░░░░ prosecutor Seth Waxman as ░░░░░░░░ as Joyce Vance that ░░░░░░░░ former federal prosecutors and ░░░░░░░░ love who was the ░░░░░░░░ DoJ pardon pardoned So ░░░░░░░░ are indebted to what ░░░░░░░░ like an all star ░░░░░░░░ I mean this would ░░░░░░░░ any law school quite ░░░░░░░░ Ronado first and for ░░░░░░░░ what does it tell ░░░░░░░░ what does it mean ░░░░░░░░ John dowd was reportedly ░░░░░░░░ pardons before people flipped ░░░░░░░░ suggests to me that ░░░░░░░░ was trying to persuade ░░░░░░░░ from flipping And they ░░░░░░░░ it in a clever ░░░░░░░░ they had dowd be ░░░░░░░░ one to communicate with ░░░░░░░░ so President Trump s ░░░░░░░░ are not on it ░░░░░░░░ saw how President Trump ░░░░░░░░ is very tight lipped ░░░░░░░░ it So this way ░░░░░░░░ words are coming out ░░░░░░░░ dowd s mouth not ░░░░░░░░ it s going to ░░░░░░░░ harder for Mueller to ░░░░░░░░ behind the curtain and ░░░░░░░░ if Trump himself was ░░░░░░░░ one behind the efforts ░░░░░░░░ diswade the prosecution I ░░░░░░░░ really disturbed by the ░░░░░░░░ that it s the ░░░░░░░░ s personal lawyer who ░░░░░░░░ involved in offering these ░░░░░░░░ The criminal lawyer typically ░░░░░░░░ Margaret will confirm this ░░░░░░░░ represented a number of ░░░░░░░░ who initially sought a ░░░░░░░░ the pardon attorney s ░░░░░░░░ evaluated those cases often ░░░░░░░░ concert with the federal ░░░░░░░░ s office often it ░░░░░░░░ go over to the ░░░░░░░░ House cosel who would ░░░░░░░░ discuss the pardon with ░░░░░░░░ president Nowhere in there ░░░░░░░░ a scenario for an ░░░░░░░░ privately hired by the ░░░░░░░░ to represent him for ░░░░░░░░ criminal charges You ticked ░░░░░░░░ so much I want ░░░░░░░░ be clear You re ░░░░░░░░ he was out of ░░░░░░░░ lane in a way ░░░░░░░░ might have been inappropriate ░░░░░░░░ wasn t just out ░░░░░░░░ his lane what he ░░░░░░░░ doing was he was ░░░░░░░░ criminal attorney trying to ░░░░░░░░ or trying to prevent ░░░░░░░░ against his client from ░░░░░░░░ available to testify at ░░░░░░░░ If you get a ░░░░░░░░ a job out of ░░░░░░░░ country so they can ░░░░░░░░ be brought to trial ░░░░░░░░ a criminal defense attorney ░░░░░░░░ was what dowd was ░░░░░░░░ to do he was ░░░░░░░░ trying to make witnesses ░░░░░░░░ his clients unavailable at ░░░░░░░░ Margaret if you take ░░░░░░░░ New York Times report ░░░░░░░░ its face is this ░░░░░░░░ the pardon power is ░░░░░░░░ to be considered and ░░░░░░░░ or not Well I ░░░░░░░░ say that there is ░░░░░░░░ ordinary kind of pardon ░░░░░░░░ as Joyce has mentioned ░░░░░░░░ that doesn t mean ░░░░░░░░ that s the only ░░░░░░░░ of pardon that is ░░░░░░░░ or indeed proper And ░░░░░░░░ cases do go through ░░░░░░░░ Justice Department and some ░░░░░░░░ are handled by the ░░░░░░░░ directly So there are ░░░░░░░░ different ways that the ░░░░░░░░ can get advise about ░░░░░░░░ Meaning you re okay ░░░░░░░░ it on its face ░░░░░░░░ it s problematic on ░░░░░░░░ s facing It I ░░░░░░░░ t commenting on the ░░░░░░░░ situation I m going ░░░░░░░░ go ahead and lawyer ░░░░░░░░ we got so many ░░░░░░░░ I m going to ░░░░░░░░ you and ask the ░░░░░░░░ that if you treat ░░░░░░░░ Russia story on its ░░░░░░░░ does it seem problematic ░░░░░░░░ pardon or does it ░░░░░░░░ okay I think it ░░░░░░░░ to me a bit ░░░░░░░░ to tell you the ░░░░░░░░ Yeah Seth Yeah I ░░░░░░░░ it s always been ░░░░░░░░ question to me this ░░░░░░░░ been the X factor ░░░░░░░░ this whole scenario with ░░░░░░░░ Manafort especially why hasn ░░░░░░░░ he flipped The case ░░░░░░░░ him seems to be ░░░░░░░░ strong Having been a ░░░░░░░░ lndering days case I ░░░░░░░░ prosecuted many of them ░░░░░░░░ you have a person ░░░░░░░░ Rick Gates flipping who ░░░░░░░░ known Paul Manafort for ░░░░░░░░ party Bart of 10 ░░░░░░░░ or more Why is ░░░░░░░░ Manafort standing tall and ░░░░░░░░ s always been my ░░░░░░░░ If you re President ░░░░░░░░ and you knew Paul ░░░░░░░░ was in that key ░░░░░░░░ Tower meeting with your ░░░░░░░░ and son in law ░░░░░░░░ that was a quid ░░░░░░░░ quo where the Russians ░░░░░░░░ offering dirt on the ░░░░░░░░ and you re worried ░░░░░░░░ that you want to ░░░░░░░░ sure that Manafort doesn ░░░░░░░░ get into the Mueller ░░░░░░░░ one way to prevent ░░░░░░░░ is to offer a ░░░░░░░░ What makes it a ░░░░░░░░ explosive situation for them ░░░░░░░░ rallying the White House ░░░░░░░░ might be wondering what ░░░░░░░░ the silver lining in ░░░░░░░░ for Donald Trump I ░░░░░░░░ one the New York ░░░░░░░░ story says it s ░░░░░░░░ whether dowd who resigned ░░░░░░░░ week discussed the pardons ░░░░░░░░ Mr Trump before bringing ░░░░░░░░ up with the other ░░░░░░░░ And Joyce this goes ░░░░░░░░ a defense we have ░░░░░░░░ in the stormy Daniels ░░░░░░░░ in the case of ░░░░░░░░ women and now we ░░░░░░░░ seeing the same iied ░░░░░░░░ here tonight which is ░░░░░░░░ Trump must have the ░░░░░░░░ rogue lawyers in the ░░░░░░░░ They re paying people ░░░░░░░░ checking with him they ░░░░░░░░ facilitating payments out of ░░░░░░░░ own pocket in their ░░░░░░░░ equity line now they ░░░░░░░░ talking about possible pardons ░░░░░░░░ talking to him For ░░░░░░░░ why who ran a ░░░░░░░░ organization at Trump org ░░░░░░░░ seem to be doing ░░░░░░░░ they feel like You ░░░░░░░░ to be answering the ░░░░░░░░ brilliantly It s not ░░░░░░░░ of a defense For ░░░░░░░░ dowd may find himself ░░░░░░░░ the uncomfortable position of ░░░░░░░░ interrogated by Mueller and ░░░░░░░░ some criminal suspicion But ░░░░░░░░ the end of the ░░░░░░░░ there will be a ░░░░░░░░ of different ways of ░░░░░░░░ whether the president was ░░░░░░░░ of these conversations we ░░░░░░░░ seen some indication that ░░░░░░░░ was researching early on ░░░░░░░░ extent of his Padon ░░░░░░░░ how that matches up ░░░░░░░░ the timelines where these ░░░░░░░░ happened will be interesting ░░░░░░░░ t see a whole ░░░░░░░░ of silver lining for ░░░░░░░░ White House it s ░░░░░░░░ More than a touch ░░░░░░░░ gray Ronado let me ░░░░░░░░ the Trump dowd review ░░░░░░░░ is a significant report ░░░░░░░░ you re talking about ░░░░░░░░ who know things about ░░░░░░░░ Trump who flipped and ░░░░░░░░ with Mueller and this ░░░░░░░░ a way to evade ░░░░░░░░ Dowd stayed he didn ░░░░░░░░ know why he told ░░░░░░░░ Flynn the president had ░░░░░░░░ believed the case against ░░░░░░░░ was flimsy and was ░░░░░░░░ to pardon him Can ░░░░░░░░ parse that pardon reference ░░░░░░░░ the president a ppp ░░░░░░░░ I was just as ░░░░░░░░ as dowd when Flynn ░░░░░░░░ because we know that ░░░░░░░░ asked what was asked ░░░░░░░░ Trump to let Flynn ░░░░░░░░ so we know that ░░░░░░░░ felt strongly about Flynn ░░░░░░░░ I ll tell you ░░░░░░░░ that really means is ░░░░░░░░ Flynn was probably concerned ░░░░░░░░ his son being prosecuted ░░░░░░░░ concerned about state charges ░░░░░░░░ there was some other ░░░░░░░░ why Flynn flipped and ░░░░░░░░ won t know now ░░░░░░░░ don t know now ░░░░░░░░ eventually I m sure ░░░░░░░░ will learn what that ░░░░░░░░ And Margaret again you ░░░░░░░░ here joining us because ░░░░░░░░ your extensive experiencing in ░░░░░░░░ nonpartisan capacity in dealing ░░░░░░░░ his pardon and clemency ░░░░░░░░ so you know as ░░░░░░░░ as I do how ░░░░░░░░ tweets are part O ░░░░░░░░ time you pardoned general ░░░░░░░░ who has taken the ░░░░░░░░ fall for all of ░░░░░░░░ given what do you ░░░░░░░░ from what we can ░░░░░░░░ from that which is ░░░░░░░░ some reason we have ░░░░░░░░ new report from the ░░░░░░░░ York Times and we ░░░░░░░░ what lawyers would call ░░░░░░░░ contemporaneous time in history ░░░░░░░░ Flynn and Trump were ░░░░░░░░ about pardons This was ░░░░░░░░ the water Let me ░░░░░░░░ one comment to add ░░░░░░░░ this Sure The question ░░░░░░░░ whether the president s ░░░░░░░░ power is unlimited has ░░░░░░░░ aspects one is is ░░░░░░░░ unlimited in terms of ░░░░░░░░ it can do for ░░░░░░░░ And the other is ░░░░░░░░ it unlimited in terms ░░░░░░░░ the consequences for the ░░░░░░░░ himself and I think ░░░░░░░░ the first instance yes ░░░░░░░░ pardon power is unlimited ░░░░░░░░ that does not mean ░░░░░░░░ there may not be ░░░░░░░░ if the president gets ░░░░░░░░ in some sort of ░░░░░░░░ behavior when he s ░░░░░░░░ So I think that ░░░░░░░░ would simply add to ░░░░░░░░ Joyce mentioned about the ░░░░░░░░ of the president s ░░░░░░░░ power Yeah you re ░░░░░░░░ something really important and ░░░░░░░░ bad for a White ░░░░░░░░ any White House that ░░░░░░░░ misuse the pardoning power ░░░░░░░░ fact that it s ░░░░░░░░ is unlimited doesn t ░░░░░░░░ there are consequences The ░░░░░░░░ to appoint a senator ░░░░░░░░ a sitting governor is ░░░░░░░░ standard and unlimited in ░░░░░░░░ constitution and state rules ░░░░░░░░ yet when governor blagojevich ░░░░░░░░ to auction off that ░░░░░░░░ he wound up in ░░░░░░░░ It doesn t mean ░░░░░░░░ can t appoint as ░░░░░░░░ say in court other ░░░░░░░░ can happen Margaret love ░░░░░░░░ expertise as a first ░░░░░░░░ member on The beat ░░░░░░░░ appreciate it Thank you ░░░░░░░░ I want to turn ░░░░░░░░ another breaking story a ░░░░░░░░ House shake up Culkin ░░░░░░░░ and he s going ░░░░░░░░ be replaced by Donald ░░░░░░░░ s personal position.