Covid Lockdown Zealot Gets into Testy Exchange When Host Asks About Her Membership in Communist Party

With so called freedom ░░░░░░░░ fast approaching wearing a ░░░░░░░░ is going to become ░░░░░░░░ personal choice one minister ░░░░░░░░ said that people will ░░░░░░░░ have to use their ░░░░░░░░ sense on where and ░░░░░░░░ to wear them but ░░░░░░░░ the World Health Organization ░░░░░░░░ that even fully vaccinated ░░░░░░░░ should continue to use ░░░░░░░░ face covering to prevent ░░░░░░░░ spread of the delta ░░░░░░░░ should the current rules ░░░░░░░░ in place for longer ░░░░░░░░ have been very fed ░░░░░░░░ with the mask so ░░░░░░░░ think it s gonna ░░░░░░░░ from one person to ░░░░░░░░ next the other people ░░░░░░░░ want to wear it ░░░░░░░░ people won t want ░░░░░░░░ wear it the government ░░░░░░░░ own one thing and ░░░░░░░░ are doing the opposite ░░░░░░░░ the you know then ░░░░░░░░ go into shops they ░░░░░░░░ marks on to go ░░░░░░░░ them and there s ░░░░░░░░ about two or three ░░░░░░░░ in a shop come ░░░░░░░░ the street immediately take ░░░░░░░░ mask off and they ░░░░░░░░ shoulder to shoulder everywhere ░░░░░░░░ the country I think ░░░░░░░░ will still wear it ░░░░░░░░ confined spaces shops it ░░░░░░░░ common sense isn t ░░░░░░░░ at the end of ░░░░░░░░ day and some people ░░░░░░░░ got it and some ░░░░░░░░ haven t well over ░░░░░░░░ weekend government minister Robert ░░░░░░░░ gave his verdict on ░░░░░░░░ he s going to ░░░░░░░░ we are going to ░░░░░░░░ think now move into ░░░░░░░░ period where there won ░░░░░░░░ be legal restrictions the ░░░░░░░░ won t be telling ░░░░░░░░ what to do but ░░░░░░░░ will want to exercise ░░░░░░░░ degree of personal responsibility ░░░░░░░░ judgment okay he actually ░░░░░░░░ that he wasn t ░░░░░░░░ to continue wearing a ░░░░░░░░ after um July the ░░░░░░░░ and we spoke to ░░░░░░░░ government minister earlier on ░░░░░░░░ week who said the ░░░░░░░░ thing we have put ░░░░░░░░ out to Twitter to ░░░░░░░░ you will you continue ░░░░░░░░ wear a mask once ░░░░░░░░ are no longer mandatory ░░░░░░░░ this is the result ░░░░░░░░ more than half of ░░░░░░░░ will no longer wear ░░░░░░░░ but 47 will so ░░░░░░░░ s talk to professor ░░░░░░░░ mickey a behavioral psychologist ░░░░░░░░ member of sage who ░░░░░░░░ the sensible thing is ░░░░░░░░ continue with the restrictions ░░░░░░░░ masks and dominique samuels ░░░░░░░░ political commentator and will ░░░░░░░░ glad to throw hers ░░░░░░░░ the bin on the ░░░░░░░░ of July uh professor ░░░░░░░░ mickey as a behavioral ░░░░░░░░ do you think that ░░░░░░░░ is now part of ░░░░░░░░ behavior to continue wearing ░░░░░░░░ mask because for more ░░░░░░░░ well for about a ░░░░░░░░ we ve been told ░░░░░░░░ actually are effective or ░░░░░░░░ the legal restrictions being ░░░░░░░░ on them mean that ░░░░░░░░ people will ditch them ░░░░░░░░ if we look at ░░░░░░░░ the evidence as to ░░░░░░░░ s happened over the ░░░░░░░░ 15 months of this ░░░░░░░░ what we ve seen ░░░░░░░░ that people will um ░░░░░░░░ precautions where they see ░░░░░░░░ s a serious threat ░░░░░░░░ their health or the ░░░░░░░░ of other people when ░░░░░░░░ think what they do ░░░░░░░░ make a difference so ░░░░░░░░ that point of view ░░░░░░░░ think people many people ░░░░░░░░ continue given we re ░░░░░░░░ a very critical situation ░░░░░░░░ the moment with up ░░░░░░░░ 000 new cases a ░░░░░░░░ exponentially rising a population ░░░░░░░░ s partially vaccinated which ░░░░░░░░ three real problems one ░░░░░░░░ it means that with ░░░░░░░░ transmission like that will ░░░░░░░░ more variance and that ░░░░░░░░ more chance of a ░░░░░░░░ that would undermine our ░░░░░░░░ program the second is ░░░░░░░░ have an estimated two ░░░░░░░░ people already living with ░░░░░░░░ covingt which can debilitate ░░░░░░░░ for weeks months even ░░░░░░░░ to a year and ░░░░░░░░ although hospitalization is still ░░░░░░░░ it s rising and ░░░░░░░░ lifting restrictions will mean ░░░░░░░░ that rises even more ░░░░░░░░ a situation where nhs ░░░░░░░░ are exhausted and we ░░░░░░░░ got a huge backlog ░░░░░░░░ list of urgent uh ░░░░░░░░ that need to be ░░░░░░░░ well the logical extension ░░░░░░░░ everything you just said ░░░░░░░░ be that you think ░░░░░░░░ we shouldn t lift ░░░░░░░░ at all on the ░░░░░░░░ we should carry on ░░░░░░░░ as we are is ░░░░░░░░ I right is that ░░░░░░░░ you re suggesting well ░░░░░░░░ restrictions will increase transmission ░░░░░░░░ with all the problems ░░░░░░░░ I ve just talked ░░░░░░░░ it doesn t seem ░░░░░░░░ me the best time ░░░░░░░░ do that all right ░░░░░░░░ you re saying if ░░░░░░░░ remember a few weeks ░░░░░░░░ we actually postponed lifting ░░░░░░░░ because the situation was ░░░░░░░░ serious but the situation ░░░░░░░░ even more serious now ░░░░░░░░ it was then listen ░░░░░░░░ s a point I ░░░░░░░░ have to put to ░░░░░░░░ and and you ll ░░░░░░░░ aware of this because ░░░░░░░░ s been a lot ░░░░░░░░ um of commentary about ░░░░░░░░ in the British media ░░░░░░░░ you um and it ░░░░░░░░ to deal with your ░░░░░░░░ and you know what ░░░░░░░░ m going to ask ░░░░░░░░ uh you ve been ░░░░░░░░ member of the communist ░░░░░░░░ for about 40 years ░░░░░░░░ you re still a ░░░░░░░░ and we know that ░░░░░░░░ communism is basically statist ░░░░░░░░ look at communist countries ░░░░░░░░ the world and we ░░░░░░░░ that they are tremendously ░░░░░░░░ down dominant and controlled ░░░░░░░░ that they that they ░░░░░░░░ over and I just ░░░░░░░░ and I m putting ░░░░░░░░ question on behalf of ░░░░░░░░ who wonder about your ░░░░░░░░ if your politics actually ░░░░░░░░ your sense of control ░░░░░░░░ s not just it ░░░░░░░░ not just the medical ░░░░░░░░ but you have a ░░░░░░░░ of a political bent ░░░░░░░░ want the state to ░░░░░░░░ people what to do ░░░░░░░░ ve come on your ░░░░░░░░ as a scientist as ░░░░░░░░ all people who come ░░░░░░░░ your program as scientists ░░░░░░░░ come on to talk ░░░░░░░░ the evidence relevant theories ░░░░░░░░ we approach our scientific ░░░░░░░░ and you don t ░░░░░░░░ other scientists about politics ░░░░░░░░ I m very happy ░░░░░░░░ speak about science which ░░░░░░░░ what my job is ░░░░░░░░ and to limit it ░░░░░░░░ that so you re ░░░░░░░░ that your politics doesn ░░░░░░░░ inform your opinion on ░░░░░░░░ subject I m saying ░░░░░░░░ I agree to come ░░░░░░░░ this programme as a ░░░░░░░░ and I m very ░░░░░░░░ to talk to you ░░░░░░░░ the issues that you ░░░░░░░░ raising as a scientist ░░░░░░░░ is the same for ░░░░░░░░ scientists that you invite ░░░░░░░░ the program that s ░░░░░░░░ perfectly fair answer thank ░░░░░░░░ for thank you for ░░░░░░░░ um hasn t your ░░░░░░░░ changed a bit on ░░░░░░░░ I seem to remember ░░░░░░░░ year when the whole ░░░░░░░░ came into play in ░░░░░░░░ country you were quite ░░░░░░░░ cynical about their usefulness ░░░░░░░░ t you um I ░░░░░░░░ say cynical I was ░░░░░░░░ questioning because at the ░░░░░░░░ there was much more ░░░░░░░░ on droplets and transmitting ░░░░░░░░ sphere surfaces rather than ░░░░░░░░ and as the science ░░░░░░░░ and progressed over the ░░░░░░░░ the evidence accumulated that ░░░░░░░░ the key transmission route ░░░░░░░░ these tiny droplets aerosols ░░░░░░░░ stay in the atmosphere ░░░░░░░░ many many hours at ░░░░░░░░ beginning there was a ░░░░░░░░ about on the one ░░░░░░░░ masks are helpful in ░░░░░░░░ of preventing droplet spread ░░░░░░░░ on the other hand ░░░░░░░░ they re not worn ░░░░░░░░ if people are touching ░░░░░░░░ and then touching other ░░░░░░░░ there might be a ░░░░░░░░ of spreading it that ░░░░░░░░ however the evidence about ░░░░░░░░ effectiveness of mask use ░░░░░░░░ also accumulated and looking ░░░░░░░░ the evidence I became ░░░░░░░░ and more convinced that ░░░░░░░░ the evidence for mars ░░░░░░░░ far outweighed um anything ░░░░░░░░ that s indeed a ░░░░░░░░ review of the evidence ░░░░░░░░ we keep updated and ░░░░░░░░ that s also showing ░░░░░░░░ same thing that s ░░░░░░░░ because we have dr ░░░░░░░░ here in the studio ░░░░░░░░ dominique don t worry ░░░░░░░░ re coming to you ░░░░░░░░ just a moment but ░░░░░░░░ Hillary you and I ░░░░░░░░ tussles over masks yes ░░░░░░░░ did uh back at ░░░░░░░░ the beginning of the ░░░░░░░░ because I was all ░░░░░░░░ wearing masks around April ░░░░░░░░ you in the same ░░░░░░░░ the professor did you ░░░░░░░░ issues with the fact ░░░░░░░░ if you keep touching ░░░░░░░░ mask if you keep ░░░░░░░░ it that might uh ░░░░░░░░ its effectiveness yeah but ░░░░░░░░ science has changed has ░░░░░░░░ it depends what kind ░░░░░░░░ quality masks we re ░░░░░░░░ and how we wear ░░░░░░░░ if we wear them ░░░░░░░░ our chin they re ░░░░░░░░ going to work if ░░░░░░░░ re good we can ░░░░░░░░ agree on that we ░░░░░░░░ t need the science ░░░░░░░░ point that out yeah ░░░░░░░░ well maybe we do ░░░░░░░░ also the fact that ░░░░░░░░ traps aerosols better than ░░░░░░░░ is also an important ░░░░░░░░ I think people will ░░░░░░░░ wearing masks in situations ░░░░░░░░ it is relevant so ░░░░░░░░ you re going into ░░░░░░░░ place with poor ventilation ░░░░░░░░ a lot of people ░░░░░░░░ re protecting them and ░░░░░░░░ by wearing a mask ░░░░░░░░ in the open air ░░░░░░░░ less so so I ░░░░░░░░ it s about where ░░░░░░░░ wear them and and ░░░░░░░░ many people there are ░░░░░░░░ s bring dominican now ░░░░░░░░ what did you think ░░░░░░░░ what professor mickey had ░░░░░░░░ say there well I ░░░░░░░░ as you pointed out ░░░░░░░░ think it s important ░░░░░░░░ your viewers to know ░░░░░░░░ Susan mickey also suggested ░░░░░░░░ we should wear face ░░░░░░░░ forever um and she ░░░░░░░░ that verbatim so that ░░░░░░░░ where Susan is coming ░░░░░░░░ with that dominique sorry ░░░░░░░░ ve you ve stated ░░░░░░░░ as fact that the ░░░░░░░░ that you ve stated ░░░░░░░░ denies has been reported ░░░░░░░░ this is to some ░░░░░░░░ depends on the situation ░░░░░░░░ re in and how ░░░░░░░░ the virus and the ░░░░░░░░ is around you one ░░░░░░░░ literally in the future ░░░░░░░░ it if there was ░░░░░░░░ real threat from the ░░░░░░░░ okay that s qualified ░░░░░░░░ dominique carry on yeah ░░░░░░░░ mean the goal for ░░░░░░░░ though if you re ░░░░░░░░ face masks forever and ░░░░░░░░ the end of the ░░░░░░░░ um in terms of ░░░░░░░░ we are right now ░░░░░░░░ are not in dire ░░░░░░░░ right now at all ░░░░░░░░ terms of case rates ░░░░░░░░ are rising but the ░░░░░░░░ between hospitalizations and deaths ░░░░░░░░ cases has effectively been ░░░░░░░░ around uh December 19 ░░░░░░░░ when we had about ░░░░░░░░ 000 cases there were ░░░░░░░░ deaths and over 2 ░░░░░░░░ hospital admissions at the ░░░░░░░░ we re around 15 ░░░░░░░░ deaths um and about ░░░░░░░░ The um those are ░░░░░░░░ those are the numbers ░░░░░░░░ face masks being used ░░░░░░░░ mean I m concerned ░░░░░░░░ you know we we ░░░░░░░░ the face mask what ░░░░░░░░ is that going to ░░░░░░░░ almost half of those ░░░░░░░░ we polled said they ░░░░░░░░ continue to wear face ░░░░░░░░ are there any situations ░░░░░░░░ you might continue to ░░░░░░░░ them or are you ░░░░░░░░ glad to be rid ░░░░░░░░ them from the 19th ░░░░░░░░ I m afraid the ░░░░░░░░ are that the evidence ░░░░░░░░ terms of face masks ░░░░░░░░ not completely conclusive and ░░░░░░░░ s because most people ░░░░░░░░ wear face masks are ░░░░░░░░ the surgical masks and ░░░░░░░░ traditional facial facial coverings ░░░░░░░░ surgical masks do not ░░░░░░░░ you from smaller airborne ░░░░░░░░ and that s from ░░░░░░░░ research done by cambridge ░░░░░░░░ hospitals that has recommended ░░░░░░░░ upgrade for healthcare workers ░░░░░░░░ to um respiratory mass ░░░░░░░░ s been 47 times ░░░░░░░░ likely to protect healthcare ░░░░░░░░ from infection so the ░░░░░░░░ coverings that people actually ░░░░░░░░ do wear don t ░░░░░░░░ protect you that much ░░░░░░░░ the virus because most ░░░░░░░░ either aren t wearing ░░░░░░░░ or repairing the mask ░░░░░░░░ that is why it ░░░░░░░░ based upon personal ambition ░░░░░░░░ to wear a face ░░░░░░░░ it is more of ░░░░░░░░ psychological exercise which I ░░░░░░░░ Susan mickey would be ░░░░░░░░ in due to her ░░░░░░░░ in behavioral science it ░░░░░░░░ an element of emergency ░░░░░░░░ people want to socially ░░░░░░░░ and convince people that ░░░░░░░░ re still in a ░░░░░░░░ of emergency when with ░░░░░░░░ immunity and our fantastic ░░░░░░░░ program we just actually ░░░░░░░░ not okay can we ░░░░░░░░ bring professionally mickey back ░░░░░░░░ professor mikey just to ░░░░░░░░ it slightly what did ░░░░░░░░ make of our new ░░░░░░░░ secretary s article in ░░░░░░░░ mail on Sunday yesterday ░░░░░░░░ don t know if ░░░░░░░░ read it but just ░░░░░░░░ summarize it basically he ░░░░░░░░ taken a completely different ░░░░░░░░ from his predecessor from ░░░░░░░░ hancock he s much ░░░░░░░░ upbeat he s much ░░░░░░░░ optimistic and in effect ░░░░░░░░ he said yesterday was ░░░░░░░░ it was his job ░░░░░░░░ a health secretary to ░░░░░░░░ at the situation much ░░░░░░░░ in the round and ░░░░░░░░ through the narrow corridor ░░░░░░░░ Covid but to look ░░░░░░░░ all the other effects ░░░░░░░░ lockdown and the health ░░░░░░░░ and the mental health ░░░░░░░░ it has and he ░░░░░░░░ seeing it from that ░░░░░░░░ of view do you ░░░░░░░░ you accept that that ░░░░░░░░ that he presented yesterday ░░░░░░░░ think it s absolutely ░░░░░░░░ to do everything we ░░░░░░░░ to prevent going backwards ░░░░░░░░ this road map and ░░░░░░░░ make sure that we ░░░░░░░░ ever have another lockdown ░░░░░░░░ if we re to ░░░░░░░░ the chance of going ░░░░░░░░ we need to drive ░░░░░░░░ community transmission and the ░░░░░░░░ is that lifting restrictions ░░░░░░░░ going to increase not ░░░░░░░░ down community transmission the ░░░░░░░░ issue is about um ░░░░░░░░ handing over sort of ░░░░░░░░ everything s personal responsibility ░░░░░░░░ if we look at ░░░░░░░░ areas of our lives ░░░░░░░░ s not the case ░░░░░░░░ don t say to ░░░░░░░░ you can drive on ░░░░░░░░ side of the road ░░░░░░░░ fancy at any speed ░░░░░░░░ fancy we actually have ░░░░░░░░ that protect other people ░░░░░░░░ for example it s ░░░░░░░░ to you whether you ░░░░░░░░ a hard hat on ░░░░░░░░ building site or whether ░░░░░░░░ have a helmet on ░░░░░░░░ motorbike we have rules ░░░░░░░░ these things to protect ░░░░░░░░ themselves but also importantly ░░░░░░░░ protect other people and ░░░░░░░░ of the issues about ░░░░░░░░ viral transmission such as ░░░░░░░░ is that your behavior ░░░░░░░░ t just affect you ░░░░░░░░ affects other people and ░░░░░░░░ you can be transmitting ░░░░░░░░ virus not knowing it ░░░░░░░░ that s one of ░░░░░░░░ problems about Covid is ░░░░░░░░ much is transmitted when ░░░░░░░░ don t have symptoms ░░░░░░░░ dominating other people dominique ░░░░░░░░ you did you say ░░░░░░░░ would uh wear a ░░░░░░░░ in any situation or ░░░░░░░░ none yeah just quickly ░░░░░░░░ of the points that ░░░░░░░░ raised there the examples ░░░░░░░░ you gave was more ░░░░░░░░ about a more immediate ░░░░░░░░ and the issue with ░░░░░░░░ is it it s ░░░░░░░░ an immediate risk and ░░░░░░░░ s why people who ░░░░░░░░ masks and people who ░░░░░░░░ been double vaccinated in ░░░░░░░░ cases do catch covered ░░░░░░░░ because in life you ░░░░░░░░ always going to be ░░░░░░░░ to an element of ░░░░░░░░ that doesn t mean ░░░░░░░░ the government has the ░░░░░░░░ to micromanage what you ░░░░░░░░ to wear on your ░░░░░░░░ whether you choose to ░░░░░░░░ your business and whether ░░░░░░░░ can see a loving ░░░░░░░░ dying loved one that ░░░░░░░░ a very important personally ░░░░░░░░ me I I will ░░░░░░░░ be wearing a face ░░░░░░░░ um I don t ░░░░░░░░ it s necessary but ░░░░░░░░ people by their own ░░░░░░░░ want to do it ░░░░░░░░ it makes them feel ░░░░░░░░ because it doesn t ░░░░░░░░ make you more safe ░░░░░░░░ it makes them feel ░░░░░░░░ then that s up ░░░░░░░░ them well I have ░░░░░░░░ say I think I ░░░░░░░░ both sides of the ░░░░░░░░ neatly mirror The National ░░░░░░░░ here I think what ░░░░░░░░ heard from both both ░░░░░░░░ you there thank you ░░░░░░░░ that um is exactly ░░░░░░░░ what we re getting ░░░░░░░░ our poll and what ░░░░░░░░ are saying on the ░░░░░░░░ it really is pretty ░░░░░░░░ 50 50 Thank you ░░░░░░░░ very much indeed you